Comments on Just Call Me Chaviva: The Big Reveal

This took a lot of courage. I commend you on sha...

2012-01-05T21:18:09.309-07:00

This took a lot of courage.

I commend you on sharing your life with us. I dont' even know you but I'm touched by your candidness.

How awful to you know , share something deeply important and have others trash you for it.

I"m a convert, I'm a Reform convert but a convert none the less. I toyed with at one point years and years ago the idea of going "all the way" and doing an Orthodox conversion, but realistically I can't. I don't have it in me. I completely "get" what you meant by the "box" I don't fit in that box either. So i'm just going to be a Reform Jew who is very observant for her "branch".

BE YOU. Who cares what everyone else thinks, live for you. its taken me YEARS to realize this for myself, but you need to live for you. Reform, Orthodox, Conservative, non practicing... it doesn't matter. WE ARE ALL JEWS. And that being said didn't someone VERY wise once say "don't do to others what is hateful to yourself, the rest is commentary go and study"- some people who have commented on this should take that lesson to heart.

Rather I should say that the ultimate problem is t...

2011-12-30T01:17:52.595-07:00

Rather I should say that the ultimate problem is that a large portion of the Rabbinate in the US has forgotten that being a Rav is a service position, in which the best interests of the people are supposed to be protected, not individual territories, and sectarian lines. Hence no US chief Rabbi or overarching Rabbinate.

@ DieMaRgh That is a highly politicized(libertari...

2011-12-29T23:15:28.727-07:00

@ DieMaRgh

That is a highly politicized(libertarian) and revisionist view of US history. The US was a Federation... That didn't work. Thus it became a Union. Hence the Constistution began with "...to form a more perfect union."

As far as States rights... Ever hear of something called the Civil War? It was decided there, once and finally that the Federal government was the supreme law of the land, and that State's rights were secondary considerations. So US Supreme Court then ruled, and has ever since.

Since the Constitution invest the Supreme Court with the power as the final arbitor and interpreter of the US Constitution, and as they have so interpreted for 151 of the US Constitutions 225 years.

Furthermore a US chief Rabbi would not need to ever be recognized by the US govt, much less appointed by the US Federal Govt. Typically Chief Rabbis are elected by chief Rabbis of individual cities, which in turn are elected by the congregational Rabbis of their cities. Much like Bishops in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. The US Govt has no say over who is the Archbishop over the US for either of those faiths.

Moving on, the Chief Rabbi of Israel, being the Chief Rabbi of a sovereign nation, has to the right to decide who he will and will not recognize as a sovereign entity, and has a much right to declare the US one entity as they do the EU, or the various nations of the FSU.

That there is a problem reflects far more on the lack of Yachdut amongst the various streams of US Orthodoxy than it does anything of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel. The Chief Rabbinate has no problem recognizing Reform or Conservative conversions, as they despite the wide range of views found within either movement, are able to agree enough to form inclusive umbrella organizations for themselves.

Thank you for sharing your parochial political views about what the nature of the US government is, I understand that you feel strongly about them, and feel quite sincerely about them. However, please understand that they really have no bearing on a national Rabbinate, which is something that is, and traditionally has been, a matter determined by the Jews of a nation, and not it government.

I have never read your blog before and may never a...

2011-12-29T12:16:44.285-07:00

I have never read your blog before and may never again. I read it as a posting on a Rabbi's fb page I know. With that being said congrats on basing your life on what you believe you and God want not some person who lived around 600 years ago. I know you have loyalties to Orthodoxy, but in my opinion they need to wake up and see the world for what it is. We are living in a diverse world not in a ghetto in Poland. We live in cities and Towns where it is very possible that you do not live near other Jews. Though there are exceptions people want you at your job not because of your religion or faith, but because of your skills. Religion feeds the soul, but we can't forget that there are other parts to feed as well. And for your relationships Jews get too hung up on interfaith marriages. For one if we continue to follow interfaith only, what we will produce is a situation much like the royals of Europe, genetically inbread. Second God made us who we are and is the voice that helps us in our hearts and our conscience, so if you fall in love, and I mean real love, with someone what right does some frum queen bee of the shul have in telling God he doesn't know what's right for you. Take that as you will.

If you're happy, I'm happy for you. As Le...

2011-12-29T12:06:07.472-07:00

If you're happy, I'm happy for you.

As Leah J said, "I think converts should be allowed to grow and change in their Jewish identity the same as born Jews." I agree with that. I think its sometimes similar for BTs as well. Most BTS end up somewhere on the right. Few end up MO Liberal like myself and for a long time I was always left questioning whether others approve how how I live my Jewish life. Then I realized that I'm the only person that matters. I need to do what I think is the right fit. And that is what makes me happy.

Love you Chavs!

Best of luck finding your way to you. With love @s...

2011-12-29T11:38:09.461-07:00

Best of luck finding your way to you. With love @skjask (see you in Israel :)

@mekubal Just a note for those outside the US and ...

2011-12-29T10:53:59.523-07:00

@mekubal
Just a note for those outside the US and those inside the US without a proper grasp of our history.
Just as the European Union is not one State but many The US is not one state but many. While all 50 Sovereign states agree to be bound by one federalist government, sharing resources for military, infrastructure, and foreign relations; our constitution's parties are the separate sovereign states not the individual populous.
Those states could opt under the constitution to annul the relationship or redraft their union under a different form.
With the language of Government not establishing a religion in our constitution, this prevents the federal level being used for organization except as may exist in inter-state relations of religious groups abroad. While it may be inconvenient for the Chief Rabbinate of Israel to certify 50 separate standards they have no right to declare the United States to be one state with one standard if they do not use the same standard on other unions such as OPEC or EU.
So technically each State could have their own Chief Rabbi, though states such as New York would have extreme difficulty selecting one.

Ugh...or maybe oy? As a human being, I can empath...

2011-12-29T10:20:38.958-07:00

Ugh...or maybe oy?

As a human being, I can empathize with your situation and wish you happiness and good luck on your path. I'm sure you've thought all this through and come to the conclusion that this is what is best for you.

As an orthodox conversion candidate, I have to say, my first reaction was a face-palm. I wish what one convert does didn't effect all of us. I wish converts were judged by the same standards as born Jews and allowed the space to redefine where they are at spiritually without casting doubts on the sincerity of their conversion or those of others. Still, the reality is that converts are held to a different standard and when one of us makes choices their Beis Din would disapprove of, it often makes the process harder for everyone else.

Sadly..what may be good for the individual often is harmful to the collective. I know you're not responsible for the current state of conversions, but that is the reality we live in and given that, I can't help but wonder why be so public with something so personal when it might harm others?

MAZEL TOV! You go Chavi!!! I've been waiting...

2011-12-29T10:16:16.762-07:00

MAZEL TOV! You go Chavi!!! I've been waiting for you to open back up. I'm a convert in an LTR with a non-Jew and we work it out in our own way.

Just be happy Chavi! A life well lived, one that i...

2011-12-29T01:47:50.003-07:00

Just be happy Chavi! A life well lived, one that is happy is worth more than anything else. It is your life, nobody else's.

Just wanted to say, I am sorry for all the pain an...

2011-12-29T00:14:39.947-07:00

Just wanted to say, I am sorry for all the pain and disappointment you've gone through. I've been there myself though our situations are different. I hope you find happiness and peace soon!

While I do wish you would find a Jewish spouse and a comfortable place in Orthodoxy. I know you are in a difficult position. I want things to work out for you!! Realistically, who are the good single convert women suppose to date?? I would like the haters to comment here. No one is helping out converts. We're just suppose to take whatever garbage no born Jewess would want. One can sugar coat it, but that is my experience and those of other converts I know. I purposely moved to NYC (I've lived in 3 other communities as well) where all the singles are, and have had only a handful of dates, much less a serious relationship.

In hindsight, at your age, I wish I had the strength to do what you are doing now. I'm late 30s, and was the good girl (as I was before I was Jewish and during a long drawn out conversion) who followed the rules only to be bitter and alone now. I so looked forward to finding that nice Jewish husband and building a beautiful Jewish home. Gentile men found me attractive but I was never good enough for a Jewish man. I was not picky, just wanted a nice guy around my age who had a job, even if it was stocking shelves. No one cared about setting me up, for years and years I was just expected to do the circus of davening more, giving to charity and fundraising, and learning most nights all in that I might merit that non-existent spouse. Ha, I rarely merited a date! Hashem knows I gave it my all until I simply couldn't anymore. For the record I'm still yeshivish, but cut back learning to once a week and Shabbat and got a life, accepting I will probably not marry. I was doing far more than my FFB friends who were getting the nice dates who they were rejecting for the most trivial of reasons.

For the haters, Inter-dating is not the same as intermarriage. Not all relationships lead to marriage, most don't--though I say that I hope everything works out for you without further pain. Who knows your date might find out he's halachically Jewish or might become interested in Judaism. Why else would he be interested in opening a kosher restaurant if kashrut has no meaning to him?? He might introduce you or put you on the path to meeting your spouse. The hand of Hashem works in mysterious ways!

Why is it OK for born Jews (especially men) to date gentile women and get quicky conversions for them? After all, how did the expression "s----- are for practice," come into common usage if Jewish men behaved properly?? Note: I'm not refering to non-halachic Jews or Jews that can't prove their Jewishness or folks at the tail end of conversion, and men happen to meet such women in normal Jewish life, but gentiles with no connection to Judaism--why the double standard for born Jews that we tacitly allow them to explore and do whatever as long as the gentile they'd like to marry (after having their fill of "fun") is willing to convert? If such a relationship is forbidden to converts as the haters like to point out, then why the blind eye for born Jews?

Even if one argues it's not "OK", the reality is that this is overlooked--born Jews don't get the criticism a convert is getting, yet the convert has very few options. If one want to attack the convert for trying to find some comfort when such support is not offered to them in the Jewish community, then we need to do this across the board for born Jews too! Do the haters know any suitable men for Chavi or another convert they know?? If so, why aren't you making the much welcomed introduction??

Chavi, you don't know me but have my support, even if I don't always agree with your opinions, I want you to do what is best for YOU at this stage in your life. Much love, my fellow sister :)

I originally posted the following under wrong post...

2011-12-28T23:27:20.729-07:00

I originally posted the following under wrong post:

Good Luck with your new pathway, wherever it leads you. Happiness is the most important stone to tread on during anyone journey.

Actually, I do think Chaviva Edwards has a nice ri...

2011-12-28T21:16:56.341-07:00

Actually, I do think Chaviva Edwards has a nice ring to it. But then I like juxtaposition.

Chaviva, I am trying to read over 100 comments an...

2011-12-28T20:25:44.643-07:00

Chaviva,

I am trying to read over 100 comments and I know that you have stopped responding to them. Nevertheless, if you return to the comments, I want you to have read this one.

Please forgive me if I have hurt you with my other two comments. I don't intend to hurt anyone, and if I was a bit strong it derives from strong feelings about the subject, nothing more. I also know that this has generated quite a bit of controversy, so nothing more need be said about it.

What I want you to know is that whatever some may think of your revelation, in my eyes every convert I have met in person and on the blogs is every bit a Jew as any other. I want you to know that you are our sister in every sense of the word and will continue to be. If someone "drops" you because of this, it will be their loss. Only you know what you had to go through to get to this point, and you should hold on to it regardless of whatever happens.

As for trying to take on too much too soon...I can relate. I will not give you the details, but in my teenage years I tried to be "super-religious." Of course, that didn't work out. However, with a more mature perspective, I feel much better about my Jewish observance. I think that you may need to take it a little more slowly too (everyone's advice may still be relevant...). I think someday you will find your niche in religious observance. Take your time getting there, and enjoy the ride (I am very happy that you seem to be doing just that).

Sorry, I had to respond to the comment on "ha...

2011-12-28T20:01:30.560-07:00

Sorry, I had to respond to the comment on "having only Orthodox friends"...

Seriously? I don't think that has ever been a requirement of being Orthodox. I don't know about the larger communities, but in a smaller one, like Memphis, that would be suicidal. In the smaller communities, we have no choice but to be united.

Even in our own families, we may have non-Orthodox relatives. We may belong to more than one shul. How can we disown that part of our heritage? In high school I was active in BBYO, and I can assure you that Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform kids mixed together without any thought about it. I realize that this was a long time ago (1973), but is there any sense in alienating each other? We can agree to disagree if we must, but that should be the extent of it.

In this modern world, we have enough "labels" as it is. I never even heard the term "Modern Orthodox" until about 20 years ago. We now have "Traditional
Orthodox," "Yeshivish," "Chassidish," etc. ("You can't tell the players without a scorecard.") But in the end, "Chaverim kol Yisrael," and frankly we need to get to know each other more, not less. I want to be one of those who builds a bridge.

Chaviva, I know that you may not have intended that description of your "journey" as an insult, so please forgive me for spouting off. It just rubbed me the wrong way!!

Hugs. It sounds like there is a lot on your should...

2011-12-28T19:06:57.710-07:00

Hugs. It sounds like there is a lot on your shoulders despite this big reveal. It really doesn't matter what anyone thinks except you and I'm not reading the comments because I can only imagine the negativity that might have responded.

But I want to say. There are many very different kinds of Orthodoxy. I was lucky to find both Modern Orthodoxy & Open Orthodoxy and have been very happy there. And it defines some of my place in the world but not all of it. I converted to be Jewish, not a box to be checked off.

With that said, I hope you find your way wherever your journey takes you.

I cannot read anymore comments. The ups, the downs...

2011-12-28T17:46:58.545-07:00

I cannot read anymore comments. The ups, the downs, they hurt. I will just reiterate a few things.

1) I posted this publicly because I was tired of hearing the rumors and assumptions that were being made about me second hand. If you do not speak on your own behalf, others will speak about you. I didn't want the rumors and scandal to fly from the voices of the malicious, so I put out my own "press release."

2) I understand my actions have repercussions, that I impact more than I think, but I am not responsible for single-handedly ruining Jews, Orthodox Judaism, conversion to Judaism, or anything else. If you think that I am, you have a warped sense of reality.

Feel free to continue commenting, but I am exhausted and cannot do this anymore.

And more from B.N. via email: So I completely fee...

2011-12-28T17:41:14.296-07:00

And more from B.N. via email:

So I completely feel you Chavi. It was (and still is) very hard for me to have stepped out of the Orthodox community. For me, Orthodox Judaism is true Judaism. Yet the community would never tolerate my relationship, and I'm not going to put them into the difficult position of defending me. So where does that leave me....where do I go? I feel that if these Orthodox communities were truly observant, I am a Jewish woman -- so my children are Jews by default. I am a member of the community just as much as Queen Esther was. There are other frum women doing it (like Juliet Stamperdahl ). But the difference (which I'm not quite sure why there is a difference) is that they are born Jews, and I'm a convert.

So my take on it is this: NO community's, even the Orthodox Jewish community's, membership is worth your happiness, your future family or your self-worth. You've made the right move in my humble opinion. I would love to follow more of your story, but I can understand if you resign to more a private journey this time around.

Comments from B.N. via email: Chaviva, I've s...

2011-12-28T17:40:54.397-07:00

Comments from B.N. via email:

Chaviva, I've seen your write about your spiritual journey online since 2007. A good deal of the time, I did not agree with your perspectives on Judaism, specifically in regards to the conversion process. However looking back at your efforts over the years, I must say, that you are EXTREMELY brave. You have been one of the few voices online that would speak openly and candidly about your relationship with Judaism. Through both joy and pain...you wrote and blogged. As someone else who went through an eerily similar path (Reform conversion, Orthodox conversion, now dating a non-Jew), I am grateful. But as Skylar pointed out, I am also very concerned (I myself blog -- but I'm keeping most of the details about my Jewish life below the radar). One thing that the two of us do see eye-to-eye on is that Orthodox Judaism has some serious issues both with how conversions are handled and how converts to Judaism are see. These problems are so clearly wrong and perverted -- I don't even dare to tell most people, hence they think that I am insane for having had voluntarily put myself through it all! But the problems are still there, so like it or not, we have to act accordingly. Now I'll tell anyone who is thinking about an Orthodox conversion to Judaism that they should run away screaming. But ultimately, it is their choice, and they have the right to not have other "converts off the derech" (I don't consider you this...but I guarantee that there are others who do) cast doubt upon them.

{Sigh} But I'm not saying that you shouldn't have wrote this post. But it's good for you, and good for many other individuals...but it's "bad" for other converts to Orthodox Judaism (potential and current). While we both are 'so done' with trying to fit into the mold that Orthodox Judaism wants to make for us, they are still trying desperately to fit in. The more examples that Orthodox rabbeim have of converts not living up to [ridiculous] expectations, the more weapons that they have to use against other people trying to obtain a halachaic conversion.

I mentioned before that I am dating a non-Jew; and I love him dearly. When he met me, the amount of respect and admiration he had for me almost knocked me off my chair. It was like a breath of fresh air after having countless people in the Orthodox community "warn me" that it would be "very difficult" for me to find a husband. After being set up with 5 or 6 Orthodox Jewish men that all had serious psychological, social, and economic shortcomings (so basically, they were the guys that no one else wanted). Does anyone really think that I would not love to have a Jewish husband? That I did not truly desire to build a 100% Jewish home? Well it takes two to tango. I had to stop lying to myself, and say that one day my "open-minded-frum-Jewish-prince" would come along...because my biological clock is ticking. Too bad that many Orthodox Jews really have no clue how to live out the mitzvah of "loving the convert"....because even the ones that opened up their homes and said they admired me, would have NEVER wanted me to marry their single sons. You hear me? Never!

hadassahsabo/Yiddishe Momma - You are the best. P...

2011-12-28T17:19:47.648-07:00

hadassahsabo/Yiddishe Momma -

You are the best. Period.

Love to you!

Chaviva, I respect all that you have put out here...

2011-12-28T17:10:42.310-07:00

Chaviva,

I respect all that you have put out here on the blog. It has taken a lot for you to have a blog in the first place, let alone one which deals with all these sensitive subjects.

Frankly, I think you should let go of the idea that people are expecting you to be a "beacon" for them. Come on! That's unfair to you, and I wouldn't want that kind of pressure. I realize that people need resources to navigate the process of conversion, but to expect you to shoulder that kind of burden is too much.

Now, to weigh in on the other issue: I think anyone who is interdating is playing with fire. It may seem innocent, but there is always the possibility that it could change into something more, and inevitably there is going to be heartache. It's really better not to start. Lest you think I'm preaching, I recognize that only you can make decisions for you. This is just an outside observer talking; you know what that's worth...

At the risk of saying what everyone else has, maybe a time-out is overdue. You have gone through so much since I began reading the blog and it looks like you are still continuing to operate on overload. Maybe dating should be put on the shelf and it's time to consolidate the experiences of becoming religious and moving to a new area--maybe even get out of the limelight so everyone's not looking over your shoulder. I'm pulling for you to succeed, and maybe a little less pressure will get you through this...

Chaviva, you are very new to our Denver community....

2011-12-28T16:42:08.158-07:00

Chaviva, you are very new to our Denver community. With all due respect, you don't know the whole story about our history of restaurants and the Vaad. How could you, just having recently moved here? You are likely repeating what you've heard from others.

In an earlier entry not too long ago you critically discussed conversion in Denver, again, not knowing the whole story. You offered "to devote two to three hours a week to teaching and training converts in the basics of Judaism and conversion; after all, I've been there, I've done that, and I can lay things out from a perspective of the convert and what you need to know before the formal process."

Volunteering to a leadership position in the community teaching prospective Orthodox converts while concurrently dating a non-Jew is not a terribly great example. Though you want to help, do you not see this makes it difficult for you to be taken seriously?

I'm sure you mean well, but please give our community and its institutions a chance before airing its seemingly (to you) dirty laundry to the internet for the whole world to see. This is why there are halachos of shmiras halashon, which can be complicated, and important to first verify with a competent rav.

Can I just say that SciFi Rabbi is awesome. Chavi,...

2011-12-28T15:00:00.397-07:00

Can I just say that SciFi Rabbi is awesome. Chavi, I'm so happy that you have so many sane loving mentors in real life. Because all this struggle mandates real conversations, of the variety that are difficult if not impossible to have in a online forum like this. Perhaps over coffee at ye local starbucks...

2011-12-28T14:23:46.392-07:00

This comment has been removed by the author.

you are full of it Chaviva just as it is the law n...

2011-12-28T14:17:54.056-07:00

you are full of it Chaviva just as it is the law not to run a red light Torah Jewish women of which you opted to be one DONT SLEEP WITH NON JEWS

all the other liberal bs is going to cause serious accidents which YOU Chaviva are doing

I am personally offended by your yes to Torah then a who gives a crap I will follow my desires attitude. YOU can choose who you fall in love with because YOU can choose who not to be with.

In Torah law if you jaywalk and someone sees you, follows you gets run over then you on your bill get done for murder that is Torah law that is how careful Torah Jews have to be with the Torah and the only reason I can say these things is because you by this public blog are acting like a kofer.

According to TORAH LAW