Men's Edition | The Tzniut Project 3: Behavior Around Women

This is the third in the Men's Edition of a multi-part series called The Tzniut Project. For the Men's Edition, men from a variety of backgrounds with a variety of observances have volunteered to anonymously answer questions that I have written about their practices, people's assumptions, and more. For more information on the project, click here. 

Please continue to check back with The Tzniut Project and the Men's Edition to read more stories!

Note: This post is contributed by a reader. 

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1. How do you affiliate Jewishly? Feel free to elaborate on the words people use to describe you and the words you use to describe yourself.
In America I'd be called Modern-Orthodox, and in Israel I'd be categorized as Religious-Zionist. Overall, I'd say that I believe in strict adherence to Halacha, but realizing that sometimes different ideals, both sanctioned by the Torah, can clash and require you to make compromises in order to balance them out.

2. I say modesty or tzniut … as a man, what does that mean to you?
This means dressing in a manner that respects the people around me and the activity that I am partaking in.

An even bigger part of it is how you interact with women you meet, at work or socially.

I also believe, in general, in going a bit beyond that to make this issue more vivid in my day-to-day experience. Thus, while I will go on hikes in shorts, in general I will always leave the house in long pants.

3. Growing up, did your father or grandfather wear a kippah or any other “modest” or recognizable Jewish dress?
Yup. All my family, from both sides, is strongly Orthodox.

4. Do you think tzniut was something instilled in you by your family? Did you dress with any type of modest or recognizable Jewish dress growing up?
For sure. However, the question, I believe, does not hit the mark for men as much as it does for women. Men hardly have any clear halachik restrictions in terms of dress code, and after discussing this with my wife in past years I realized that this is probably not a coincidence: men are simply more drawn to physical stimuli than women are (in general).

To me, in today's day and age, a man's modesty is not expressed so much in how he dresses --  a more important factor is how he behaves around women, or when exposed to indecent images on the street or on television. Once you are married, these issues become even more important. In this sense, I feel that these issues were instilled in me as a kid. However, I only have brothers but no sisters, and so some of these issues came up much later in the game than for others, I would assume.

5. Are you married? How does your spouse feel about your choices regarding tzniut? Is it a dialogue or does your partner leave the mitzvah to you?
I am married, and as far as I know she is fine with my choices. When an issue comes up, I'll ask her if she thinks I should take extra precautions, and I will follow her advice unless I have a strong rational why not to do so.

6. What would you wear on a typical day? On Shabbos? If you dress or carry yourself differently on weekdays and Shabbos, why do you make this distinction and how?
I wear a shirt (long/short sleeve) and long pants -- and a Kipa and Tzitzis, of course. On Shabbat, I'll dress in formal cloths. However, as I mentioned above, this question is much less relevant, I feel, for men than for women.

7. What do you think other people infer from your clothing and head-covering choices? Has anyone ever said anything to you outright that expresses a judgment based on your appearance? (Ex: “You wear a kippah, so you must be x,y,z”)
Actually, that DID happen to me a few months ago. I was walking around where I work and someone came up to me and said, "I knew there were religious people here, but its great to see someone walk with their Tzitzis out like that." It made me feel good --  I was just being me, but to this person, I was making a statement, that you can be proud of who you are and not feel the need to fit in to the point where you need to hide your Jewishness.

8. Have you ever surprised someone by way of tzniut, making them rethink their stereotypes about what it means to be an observant Jew?
Many non-observant Jews and non-Jewish people I've talked to were surprised to hear about Isur Negia and how my wife and I were never intimate or even close to that before we married. They usually find it unbelievable to think that one could decide to marry without having a physical relationship to build on first. Of course, the fact that their grandparents probably had no problem with this concept usually eludes them ...

9. When you see someone who observes tzniut or dresses differently than you, what are your initial thoughts? How do you deal with them?
I respect people that go the extra mile to be modest, especially women, who have to work harder at it. On the other hand, extreme immodesty makes me uncomfortable, and when I'm exposed to it on the street I wish people would respect the public spaces we share and not force upon me this feeling. Of course, I live in this world, and if I have to interact with these people I put civility first -- they might make me uncomfortable, but I realize this is a culture thing, and they have a right to their opinion and style even if I think its morally problematic.

10. Anything else you’d like to add about your choices, experiences, and more!
Just to say that the most important thing I feel about modesty is to be honest with yourself about it. Especially for men, today's world is so full of immodest images and interactions that it takes a lot of work to maintain modesty on all these levels, and its important to always check yourself to make sure you are happy where you are on this spectrum.

Men's Edition | The Tzniut Project 2: Compassion, Shame, Benevolence

This is the second in the Men's Edition of a multi-part series called The Tzniut Project. For the Men's Edition, men from a variety of backgrounds with a variety of observances have volunteered to anonymously answer questions that I have written about their practices, people's assumptions, and more. For more information on the project, click here. 

Please continue to check back with The Tzniut Project and the Men's Edition to read more stories!

Note: This post is contributed by a reader. 

1. How do you affiliate Jewishly? Feel free to elaborate on the words people use to describe you and the words you use to describe yourself.Modern Orthodox or Centrist Orthodox. The elaboration: I use those terms as R Aharon Lichtenstein and R Lamm taught me to define and embrace them.

Although the approach of R Jonathan Sachs to shun all limiting labels or R Josh Yuter's Shomer Torah are attractive, I am still influenced by R Lichtenstien and R Lamm definitions/terminology from my formative years

2. I say modesty or tzniut … as a man, what does that mean to you?How one acts and dresses. Dress: I rarely wear shorts in public. To the extant my kids express shock if I ever do. My clothes for the most part are not loud (a lot of fall colors, toward the end of fall).

It means dressing and acting appropriately. Tzniut is not an objective but a subjective, right time and right place for some things.

3. Growing up, did your father or grandfather wear a kippah or any other “modest” or recognizable Jewish dress?One of my grandfather's did in public. My father was more comfortable without one at work or at a ball game.

I always wore one. I was at a trade show in France and on the first day wore a kippah. WOW did I fee uncomfortable. I did not wear one at subsequent shows.

My mother never wanted me to wear my tzizit hanging out. I subsequently learned that that is preferred by some.

I taught my son that kippah and tzizit is how a Jew dresses at all times (not bathing/swimming). BUT tzizit was more important.

4. Do you think tzniut was something instilled in you by your family? Did you dress with any type of modest or recognizable Jewish dress growing up?I did wear kippah and tzizit growing up. In Israel I did not like being in a large institution with everyone knowing my name but I did not know their’s. So I stopped wearing a kippah with a name. I started wearing a plain black knit kippah.

By the by, I do not consider kippah part of tzniut but the questions are pointing in that direction

A kippah should remind one how to act and is at the heart of tzniut. I guess I need to work on that -- not the wearing part, which I do wear one, but the message.

5. Are you married? How does your spouse feel about your choices regarding tzniut? Is it a dialogue or does your partner leave the mitzvah to you?I am married and my wife does it to me, and I know she would be very comfortable if I wore more colors, shorts, jeans. But I don’t.

My grandmother decided to cover her hair after being married for more than 20 years. Her husband went to very traditional yeshivot. Take what you want from the story. It is a good model of doing things because of motivation and mutual respect.

6. What would you wear on a typical day? On Shabbos? If you dress or carry yourself differently on weekdays and Shabbos, why do you make this distinction and how?Shabbos: white long-sleeve pressed shirt, slacks, jacket in shul (or suit). Tie depends if I am on time or not). Going to the park with the kids I also will only go when wearing a white long-sleeve pressed shirt.

During the week: black shoes, black knit kippah, black pants, grey shirt.

As I said about I think Tzniut is subjective. What is right for Wednesday is not right for Shabbat.

7. What do you think other people infer from your clothing and head-covering choices? Has anyone ever said anything to you outright that expresses a judgment based on your appearance? (Ex: “You wear a kippah, so you must be x,y,z”)I guess when I am at the Shabbos park in my white shirt I think the contrast to those who don’t is stark. I do want to somehow -- through what I wear -- portray a “Shabbos atmosphere.”

8. Have you ever surprised someone by way of tzniut, making them rethink their stereotypes about what it means to be an observant Jew?I heard the following this year in the context of sex ed in school: We should not judge young women by what is their hardest challenge. We tend to judge based on dress, but it is a very difficult challenge as they are evaluating their appearance, fashion sense, fitting in with friends, their new body, their sex appeal and how to use it and how NOT to.

"This nation is characterized by three things: they are compassionate, bashful/shameful, and benevolent [rachmanim, baishanim, ve-gomlei chasadim]." (Yevamot 79a)

So for me when someone has these characteristics that is what should strike people and say WOW. (Working on that, too.)

9. When you see someone who observes tzniut or dresses differently than you, what are your initial thoughts? How do you deal with them?I am very impressed by the way people act and speak. I am sure to some it comes easy but many people regardless of how they dress do speak and act in a refined way. See Talmud Yevamot 79a cited above.

10. Anything else you’d like to add about your choices, experiences, and more!

N/A

Men's Edition | The Tzniut Project 1:People Think I'm a Rabbi

This is the first in the Men's Edition of a multi-part series called The Tzniut Project. For the Men's Edition, men from a variety of backgrounds with a variety of observances have volunteered to anonymously answer questions that I have written about their practices, people's assumptions, and more. For more information on the project, click here. 


Please continue to check back with The Tzniut Project and the Men's Edition to read more stories!

Note: This post is contributed by a reader. 

1. How do you affiliate Jewishly? Feel free to elaborate on the words people use to describe you and the words you use to describe yourself. 
Orthodox, yeshivish, ben Torah.

2. I say modesty or tzniut … as a man, what does that mean to you? 
Keeping shirt buttoned, no shorts, not talking about private matters in public, using respectful language, separate seating, not going up to women to say hello, avoiding places where men and women mix. Not going to the beach. Avoiding places where women don’t dress appropriately. Being careful what I see and what websites I go to and what movies/videos I watch.

I never wear jeans.

3. Growing up, did your father or grandfather wear a kippah or any other “modest” or recognizable Jewish dress? 
My father and grandfather both wore a kippah. My father always wore a hat of some type outside the house.

4. Do you think tzniut was something instilled in you by your family? Did you dress with any type of modest or recognizable Jewish dress growing up? 
My ideas of tznius I got from Yeshiva. Not sure that Jewish dress is related to tznius.

5. Are you married? How does your spouse feel about your choices regarding tzniut? Is it a dialogue or does your partner leave the mitzvah to you? 
Yes I am married. My wife has much more stringent ideas of Tznius than I do. She would be very upset if I wore anything but a white buttoned dress shirt with a collar. Tznius in a marriage involves how what dresses and acts in the house alone and in front of others. Each couple has to work that out with each other.

6. What would you wear on a typical day? On Shabbos? If you dress or carry yourself differently on weekdays and Shabbos, why do you make this distinction and how? 
I tend to wear a white shirt, black pants and a black jacket. I also have a beard. I wear my tzitzis out. On Shabbos and Yom Tov I wear a black fedora and a tie. Why? Because wearing a black hat during the week will just get my hat ruined. The tie is in honor of Shabbos/yom tom.

7. What do you think other people infer from your clothing and head-covering choices? Has anyone ever said anything to you outright that expresses a judgment based on your appearance? (Ex: “You wear a kippah, so you must be x,y,z”) 
People think I am a rabbi, which is only partly true.

8. Have you ever surprised someone by way of tzniut, making them rethink their stereotypes about what it means to be an observant Jew? 
No.

9. When you see someone who observes tzniut or dresses differently than you, what are your initial thoughts? How do you deal with them? 
I judge people by the way they dress. I will assume they either belong to a particular Jewish grouping or they are totally mixed up and they don’t know what they are doing. I look to see if what they are wearing is consistent with their mores, their speech patterns, accents, and interests.

10. Anything else you’d like to add about your choices, experiences, and more! 
My son who is in yeshiva commented about me that the way I dress looks like someone from the past who hasn’t been influenced by the yeshiva style of today. He said in Yeshiva you would not find buchrim wearing black cotton pants, they will either wear polyester or wool. I look like someone who went to yeshiva in the past but I am now “out of it.”

The Tzniut Project: Chavi Edition!

I've been very busy gathering and editing content for The Tzniut Project, and I've even started sending out some revamped questions for the Men's Edition of the project, which will have its first post on Friday, but I'm sure many of you are asking yourselves why I haven't answered the questions myself.

The thing is, when I conceived of the idea, I hadn't really thought it was necessary for me to answer the questions. After all, I talk about tzniut all the time, and I post pictures of myself on the blog. However, as answers have come in from people I know "in real life" and those I don't, I realized that I found myself frustrated with some of the answers. I also found that a lot of people were asking "what about the men?" After all, tzniut applies to men just as much as women, doesn't it?

Here are some general notes about the content so far, and following that are my own answers to the very questions I've put out there for everyone else.

• You may have noted inconsistencies in the capitalization of things like Modern Orthodox or Yeshivish, and this is because I maintained the capitalization of the author of each of the posts. I think how we capitalize things actually can say something about how we view denominations/movements/sects/streams. Am I nuts? Maybe. 
• Some people have mentioned it, and some have not: Tzniut is more than just how we dress, and when it comes to men, this is probably one of the most powerful aspects of tzniut. It's speech, how we carry ourselves, the words we do and don't use in public, how we think, the way we do or don't touch our spouses or even people who aren't our spouses. It's the movies we watch and the stories we tell, the way we sit and the way we walk. If it were just about clothes and the cloth on our heads, we'd all be doing it right -- in some way. 
• I think it's interesting how few people mention halacha when I ask about what tzniut means to them (props to No. 1 and No. 6 on this). I'm looking at everything through the lens of the editor, of course, and as someone who wanted to see certain things in the answers that sometimes weren't there. It's sort of like asking a reporter to write a story about x, y, z and him returning with something less focused but equally amazing. I established in one old blog post that hair covering is considered Dat Moshe (law from Torah), and I discussed why we do it the way we do it, too. But what about everything else? What about our hemlines and sleeve lengths and skirts over pants? Perhaps I should delve into the mitzvah of clothing and covering up. I enjoy looking at the law, anyhow!



Kind of really loving this logo I made for the Men's Edition.

• Although I already mentioned it, the number of people asking for men to chime in on the questions was surprising, and I hadn't even thought about having men answer the questions. I revamped and reordered the questions, and I'm hoping that some men will take the time to answer the questions in full and really think about how tzniut fits in a man's world outside of just what his wife or children do/wear. And after seeing a teenager in Lazy Bean in Teaneck today wearing flip-flops, board shorts, a turquoise T-shirt, a Florida Marlins cap, and his tzitzit on top of this entire getup, I'm particularly interested in whether there are even requirements or expectations for men's attire in the realm of modesty. 

Okay, are you ready? You think you know my style? Let's see!

1. How do you affiliate Jewishly? Feel free to elaborate on the words people use to describe you and the words you use to describe yourself. 
I spent a long time calling myself Underconstructionist with the belief that everyone -- Jews and otherwise -- should always be under construction. I also am not huge on labels, since they do more harm than good and, we all know that labels are incredibly narrow. But I affiliate as Orthodox, and many would probably call me Modern Orthodox. I maintain a "centrist" view of Orthodoxy, but I'm guessing because I don't wear a sheitel every day and because I leave that tefach (hand's breadth) of bangs out, most would consider me "modern."

2. Growing up, did your mother or grandmother dress modestly in any way? Do you think modesty was something instilled in you by your family? Did you dress modestly growing up? 
Y'all know I'm a convert, so there's no chance I'd have a mom in stockings and black skirts.

On that note, I don't remember much about my grandmother on my mom's side because we only saw her a lot when we were little and I haven't seen her in years. My father's mother died when he was a child, but in all the pictures I have of her, she's wearing a dress of some sort. My mom never dressed in any kind of sexual way when I was growing up, and she was fond of pants or shorts and T-shirts most of my life that I remember. Oddly enough, I don't remember ever having a desire to wear low-cut tops or short-shorts, so I don't remember ever getting a talk about modesty or being humble in my attire or the way I carried myself. I was sort of self-taught in the ways of how to act and how to speak. I was pretty modest on my own, but that was a result of image issues and a bad case of eczema. I do, however, remember that my dad insisted on us not saying any curse words, let alone words like "frick" that even resembled curse words.

3. Are you married? How does your spouse feel about your choices for modest dress? Is it a dialogue or does your partner leave the mitzvah to you?  
I am very married -- for a whole year, hoo-rah! I've blogged about shomer negiah before, and I've gotten a lot of interesting reactions to my choices even though I never dressed in any way that would be suggestive (save a short period of time in Chicago when I was sowing my wild oats after losing 25 pounds -- I felt the need to "flaunt it" but it didn't help my body image issues). When Tuvia and I got married, he never sat me down to say that he wanted me to dress a certain way. His only real beef was regarding head covering: He didn't want me to get a sheitel. Tuvia likes the way I look in hats, and he is neutral about tichels and scarves. Every now and again, when I'm wearing something that might be more "low-cut" than normal and my clavicle happens to poke out, he'll make a comment or if my skirt is a bit too short or hugging, he'll say something. But he never demands I change or busts out some Talmudic dictum for me to wear something a certain way. Although he's read the books and knows the details, I'm the one who did most of the research regarding head covering for the blog, so it informed a lot of our understanding and made it "okay" for me to pick up a sheitel.

4. What would you wear on a typical day? On Shabbos? If you dress differently on weekdays and Shabbos, why do you make this distinction and how? 
On a typical day, you can find me in a below-the-knee jean skirt with some kind of shirt and a 3/4-length or long-sleeve cardigan with Crocs or other flats (sometimes toes peeking out if they're painted) and a knit hat or scarf of some sort. I have one jean skirt that hits me right at the bottom of the kneecap when I'm standing and when I sit it makes even me uncomfortable, so I usually wear this with leggings. Usually, however, in the summer, I'm bare-legged. On Shabbos, I wear things from the "Shabbos" section of my closet! Black skirt, some type of fancy top with a shell under and a cardigan over it. I'm all about layering, even if I'm boiling. I don't wear a ton of makeup on Shabbos, because I've become uncomfortable with the idea of putting makeup on on Saturdays because of certain prohibitions, so I try to go without, which has become easier since I got married!

I haven't worn a short-sleeve shirt in public in nearly two years, and I haven't worn pants in even longer. Pants were easy for me to give up -- it's hard to find pants that fit perfectly anyway. Also, I've been a sucker for layering and cardigans forever, so modest dress was natural.

The shirt in question.

5. What do you think other people infer from your clothing and hair covering choices? Has anyone ever said anything to you outright that expresses a judgment based on your appearance? (Ex: “You don’t cover your hair or wear skirts, so why do you keep kosher?”) 
I'm guessing most people think I'm Modern Orthodox because my hair isn't completely tied back. However, I did find out that many people thought for a long time that my bangs were clip-ins! Impressive, right? I think people usually infer that I'm religious, but normal. Modern, but that there must be a rhyme or reason to why I wear what I do. Although, yesterday when we were at the outlets at Woodbury Commons, there were a million women there from Monsey or Kiryat Yoel or something, and I was wearing my SXSW T-shirt with a pig on it with a cardigan and boy oh boy was I getting some looks. Probably not a good idea to wear that shirt around, irony or not. I used to be a very T-shirts and jeans kind of gal, and I lived at thrift stores. There are some who can pull this look off today, and I can on somedays, but sometimes it makes me feel "dressed down" and not a good representative of how modesty can be beautiful and meaningful.

For those who knew me "before" I joined the dark side, I think my skirts, cardigans in boiling weather, and insistence on covering my head/hair means that I'm something I'm not. I wish more people would ask questions than make assumptions.

6. Have you ever surprised someone by dressing more or less modestly and making them rethink their stereotypes about what it means to be an observant Jew? 
I asked this question and I don't even know if I have a good answer. I hope people think it means modest = cool!

7. When you see someone who observes tzniut differently than you, what are your initial thoughts? How do you deal with them?
I wrote about this here. I got a lot of flack for it, but I was happy that so many others who answered these questions were honest and said "yeah, we judge, it's part of who we are." I'm not alone, I just tend to be the only one willing to say what people are thinking. It's a system, and to acknowledge that what someone else does makes you uncomfortable means you're discovering something about yourself.

When I saw those women at the outlets in dark stockings with the line up the back and their hat-on-sheitel looks atop black-and-white everything, I thought to myself "Are you people nuts? It's so hot out here!" I noticed a frum couple digging through a sale table ... of sweaters ... in 80+ degree heat and thought the same thing. But they're sticking to a level of modesty that they view as necessary, and for that I admire them. It just takes a few seconds to get to "respect" after "assumed insanity."

8. I say modesty or tzniut … what does that mean to you?
For me, the first thing I think of is, "Where does it come from? What does it mean? Why do we do it?" I suppose it's only natural that I'm plagued with questions from square one. It's easy for me to explain to people why we cover our hair (the sotah portion) and why we cover as much or as little as we do. But when it comes to clothing and speech and thought, it's a lot harder. As many others have said, it's a type of lifestyle, but lifestyle sounds too much like choice to me, and for me, yes I choose to do it, but the outline of what's to be done is less of a choice. Tzniut means more than modesty, it means living your life in a way that others wish to emulate. Making your modest clothes look beautiful, to emanate inner beauty, to carry yourself in thought and speech in a way that others say "Wow, if that's what tzniut is, then count me in." It's being a light, really, unto all people. It's being humbled before haShem and all that's been provided us.

From Micah 6:8:

הגיד לך אדם מה טוב ומה יי דורש ממך כי אם עשות משפט ואהבת חסד והצנע לכת עם יי

HaShem told you what is good and what is required of you: do justly, love mercy (loving-kindness), and walk humbly (modestly) with HaShem.

The word used -- הצנע (ha'tznea) -- is the same word/root for tzniut. So, basically HaShem is saying "Walk this way."

9. Anything else you’d like to add about your choices, experiences, and more! 
I think I've said enough ... for now.

Google Chrome YOUR Kippah!

Tuvia discovered the Google Chrome Icon contest, and I concocted the CARAZY idea to make a Google Chrome Kippah out of one of the old relics he had sitting around (I think it's from a 1986 wedding). Who knows if we'll win, but this little 60-second clip was fun and quick to make. Here's hoping we make the cut!





Note: The video had to be 60 seconds or less, so if it seems chaotic and frantic, oops!

Passover Giveaway!

Pesach approaches, at light-speed, it seems. Are you ready? I think it's evident from my recent posts that I'm not, but hey, I'm getting there. So, to ease the stress of the coming holiday and all the cleaning and shopping that it involves, I'm proud to announce a Passover Giveaway, sponsored by the awesome folks at PopJudaica.com! First, the nifty giveaway items. The winner of this giveaway will receive a Bag of Plagues (perfect for the kiddies during a long seder), a Got Matzah? Apron for the crazy cooker in the house, and for the fashionable kippah connoisseur, the Matzah Yarmulke!

The rules?

1. Go to PopJudaica.com.
2. Find your favorite kitschy cool Judaica item (buy something, already, will you?)!
3. IMPORTANT: Come back here, to kvetchingeditor.com, post a comment with your favorite item and how I can contact you.
4. The deadline for entering is Sunday, March 29 at 11:59 p.m. Eastern Time.
5. Wait until Monday morning.
6. WIN!
7. Restrictions: Only U.S. and Canada residents can win!

So spread the word, figure out how you're going to use the awesome plagues in a bag to entertain your kids, or maybe even your impatient adult guests. And be sure to follow @PopJudaica over on Twitter!

Let the winning begin!

The Political Kippah!

A nod to Shmuly for shooting me an email about this AWESOME site: VanityKippah.com. Actually, he was emailing me about a cool photo gallery he made of various presidents donning kippot (my favorite? President of Neverland Ranch, oh yah!). But really, it's not too late to order your political yarmulkes for a mere $15.95 a pop, plus free S&H. Seriously? Awesome. If I wore a kippah I'd pick one up, but that's not my style.