The Tzniut Project 17: The Push-Pull of the Left and Frum Worlds

This is the seventeenth in a multi-part series called The Tzniut Project. Women from a variety of backgrounds with a variety of observances have volunteered to anonymously answer questions that I have written about their practices, people's assumptions, and more. For more information on origins the project, click here. Please continue to check back with The Tzniut Project to read more stories and comment abundantly!


Note: This post is contributed by a reader. I did include a comment, if only for posterity's sake!

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1. How do you affiliate Jewishly? Feel free to elaborate on the words people use to describe you and the words you use to describe yourself.

I consider myself centrist Orthodox. I disagree with certain aspects of the chareidi hashkafa, like the push for all men to learn in kollel and the suspicion of science and secular learning in general, so intellectually I identify with modern Orthodoxy. However, practically speaking, I don't feel that I fit in the modern Orthodox community because of what I'll call the Big Three Syndrome: there's a disproportionate emphasis on keeping Shabbos, kosher, and mikvah. I don't like the attitude that if you're keeping those mitzvos, you're all set. I'm also uncomfortable with the way many modern Orthodox folks compartmentalize their lives: over here I'm keeping Torah, and over here I'm working at my secular job, and over here I'm spending time with my family and friends ... To me, centrist Orthodoxy means acknowledging that we can learn from the secular world, while still being committed to full halachic observance at all times and in all places.

2. Growing up, did your mother or grandmother dress modestly in any way? Do you think modesty was something instilled in you by your family? Did you dress modestly growing up?
My grandmothers both dress very modestly by secular standards (loose-fitting slacks, long sleeves, high necklines). My mother does not dress particularly modestly -- lower necklines, sleeveless tops -- but she was always adamant that I not wear miniskirts. I did not dress b'tznius growing up, but I dressed more modestly than my peers. No one told me to -- I was simply uncomfortable with revealing as much skin as was cool in my circles.

3. Are you married? How does your spouse feel about your choices for modest dress? Is it a dialogue or does your partner leave the mitzvah to you?
I am not yet married. I hope that my future husband will like to see me looking and acting tzanua, including covering my hair. I plan to cover my hair with a scarf or snood, partially since it seems the most true to the spirit of the halacha, and partially since it identifies me with my ideological community.

It's true that tznius of dress is more personal than some other mitzvos. For example, the standards of kashrus I maintain in my kitchen will affect my husband and children, but only I have to wear the clothes I pick out for myself. However, my observance of hilchos tznius is part of my overall spiritual identity, which can have a huge impact on my family. If my husband went without a kippa, I would feel that this affects me and that I am entitled to comment on it. Similarly, I feel that a husband is entitled to have a say in the tznius standards of his family members, including his wife.

4. What would you wear on a typical day? On Shabbos? If you dress differently on weekdays and Shabbos, why do you make this distinction and how?
On a typical weekday, I wear a casual skirt below the knee (corduroy, khaki, denim) with a plain T-shirt (covering my collarbone) and a long-sleeve cardigan. I usually wear sneakers or clogs and wear my hair pulled back out of my face. I do not usually wear jewelry during the week (unless I'm going to a fancy event or a simcha). When we talk about tznius of dress, people think of skirt and sleeve length, but things like long, loose hair, big earrings, and even perfume are also discussed in halacha.

My Shabbos clothing is very different from my weekday clothing. On a typical Shabbos, I wear a dress or a fancy skirt and top with nice black flats. I wear my hair pulled back, but I try to make it slightly fancier than a regular weekday ponytail. I usually wear small pearl earrings and sometimes a pearl necklace. I try to dress for Shabbos like I would for a fancy event, because that is part of giving kavod to Shabbos. I also try to keep my Shabbos clothes special for Shabbos and not wear them for weekday activities, although I would wear them to a simcha on a weekday.

One subtle but significant difference between my weekday clothes and my Shabbos/Yom Tov clothes is that I always wear stockings or socks on Shabbos, while on weekdays I often don't, especially with ankle-length skirts. I wear stockings on Shabbos not because I want to be more tzanua on Shabbos, but because for me, wearing stockings is part of feeling dressed up. I agree with the opinion that the halacha regarding stockings varies from one community to another. B'ezras Hashem I'll be in Israel for a few months in the near future, and while I'm living in Jerusalem I plan to wear stockings or socks all the time, because that seems to be the minhag hamakom. Wearing stockings is something I'd like to take on full-time eventually, because I think it looks refined and classy, which is a big part of tznius for me.

5. What do you think other people infer from your clothing and hair covering choices? Has anyone ever said anything to you outright that expresses a judgment based on your appearance? (Ex: “You don’t cover your hair or wear skirts, so why do you keep kosher?”)
As someone who identifies with neither the left nor the right wing of Orthodoxy, it's funny (and sometimes frustrating) to see how people on either end of the spectrum make different assumptions about me based on my dress. I just graduated college, and on my campus, though there were quite a few Orthodox students, I was the only full-time skirt-wearer. In that environment, I seem a lot more right-wing than I really am, just by comparison. On the other hand, when I daven at the charedi shul in town, people assume I am more left-wing than I really am, probably because of how my tan stockings and colored tops stand out in that environment. In that setting, people are surprised that I really do keep Shabbos, that I really don't eat out dairy in treif restaurants, that I really do keep hilchos tznius...

6. Have you ever surprised someone by dressing more or less modestly and making them rethink their stereotypes about what it means to be an observant Jew?
My standards of tznius don't exactly match my hashkafa in other areas. I think I keep more machmir standards of tznius than other women who are ideologically similar to me -- I don't wear "the uniform" but I do look more yeshivish than the other women in my modern, liberal shul. It seems that tznius has become optional in the more modern sectors of the Orthodox community. I know many women who are fully, deeply committed to keeping Shabbos, but who see no problem wearing pants or tank tops. I think this stems from the compartmentalization I mentioned above. When one sees Torah as a set of ritual and spiritual practices rather than as a comprehensive lifestyle, it's easier to disregard certain mitzvos as outdated or less important. I hope that by dressing according to halacha and simultaneously being open-minded and more modern, I can show that tznius is not just a mitzvah for chareidi women, but for all Jewish women.

7. When you see someone who observes tzniut differently than you, what are your initial thoughts? How do you deal with them?
This is a sensitive issue. I admit to judging other women based on the way they dress and act. It's not that I would see an otherwise frum woman in pants and think, "She's a bad Jew." I might, however, make assumptions about how she's keeping other mitzvos based on how she's keeping tznius. In one woman's response [here on The Tzniut Project], she noted that she doesn't think it's reasonable to judge someone's kashrus, for example, based on her tznius. I disagree with this, because I see halacha as a comprehensive system. That doesn't mean it's all or nothing -- no one is perfect, and keeping some halachos is certainly better than keeping no halachos. But when an otherwise frum woman who has been well educated in the Orthodox system decides that keeping hilchos tznius is not important, that says something about her overall commitment to halacha. Tznius is no less a halachic requirement than Shabbos or kashrus or mikvah. If a woman gives me a reason to doubt her commitment to halacha, then I may very well be uncomfortable eating in her house.

I admire women who keep stricter standards of tznius than I do, although I don't think halacha requires it. One thing I do have a problem with is the new phenomenon of chareidi women covering their faces with a burka-like garment. There is a world of difference between trying in earnest to live a mehadrin life, and creating entirely new issurim. "Lo sosef alav, v'lo sigra mimenu" -- don't add onto the Torah, or take away from it (Devarim 13:1). There is such a thing as being too machmir.

8. I say modesty or tzniut … what does that mean to you?
At the pshat level, "tznius" refers to a set of halachos governing dress and behavior. The halachos cover, in no particular order, skirt length (or pants length, for men), sleeve length, appropriate necklines, stockings, clothing colors, clothing tightness, jewelry, hairstyles, perfume/cologne, public conduct, appropriate speech, behavior in mixed company...

On a deeper level, the concept of tznius comes from the pasuk in Micha (6:8), which says, "hatznea leches im Hashem Elokecha" -- walk modestly with Hashem your God. This is often taken out of context, though -- the whole pasuk actually says, "You have been told what's good, what Hashem demands of you -- asos mishpat (do justice), v'ahavas chesed (and love kindness), v'hatznea leches im Hashem Elokecha (and walk modestly with Hashem your God)." [Hey! This is exactly what I wrote in my post, too! Great minds think alike ... - Chaviva]


Tznius isn't just an outfit -- it's a midah, like justice or chesed. To me, tznius means striving to be the kind of person who walks with Hashem, and the clothes I wear are just one part of that -- it's also about being humble, speaking in a refined way, being sensitive to my own privacy and the privacy of others, and knowing the appropriate time and place for everything. It's about protecting my dignity as a daughter of the highest King.

9. Anything else you’d like to add about your choices, experiences, and more!
In the chareidi world, I've noticed the prevalence of the idea that just as Torah learning is the one central mitzvah for men, tznius is the one central mitzvah for women. I really disagree with this. The obsession with women's dress in some chareidi circles seems very unhealthy to me, especially since it's obvious that in the early sources, the subject of tznius didn't get nearly as much air time it gets today.

I think this is most likely an expression of the ever-widening gap between the frum world and the secular world. Until relatively recently, there wasn't so much difference between secular women's clothing and Jewish women's clothing. Now that the secular world is pushing further and further left, and very revealing clothing and undignified behavior has become acceptable, the frum world feels, perhaps subconsciously, that it needs to push further right to insulate and differentiate itself. The irony, of course, is that the harder they try NOT to be influenced by the secular world, by taking on more machmir standards and putting more and more emphasis on the importance of women's clothing, the more they are admitting that they HAVE been influenced by the secular world.

I think it's commendable if one individual wants to take on a chumra that's meaningful to her. What's problematic is making a chumra the baseline standard for an entire community.

I also want to add that some people argue that tznius is not "as required" as Shabbos or kashrus, for example, because the halacha is of a different nature -- it's mid'rabanan rather than mid'oraisa, or it's das yehudis rather than das Moshe, etc. I am certainly not an expert on this issue, so I'll just say that in my very humble opinion, according to what I was taught, distinctions like das yehudis/das Moshe speak only to the nature and the source of the halacha, not to the importance or required-ness of the content of the halacha. The label "das yehudis" does not mean, "this halacha is more optional than those explicitly mentioned in Chumash."

The Tzniut Project 7: Being Attractive, Not Attracting

This is the seventh in a multi-part series called The Tzniut Project. Women from a variety of backgrounds with a variety of observances have volunteered to anonymously answer questions that I have written about their practices, people's assumptions, and more. For more information on the project, click here. Please continue to check back with The Tzniut Project to read more stories and comment abundantly!

Note: This post is contributed by a reader.


1. How do you affiliate Jewishly? Feel free to elaborate on the words people use to describe you and the words you use to describe yourself.
I would say that I am Centerist Modern Orthodox. I only wear skirts, cover my knees, elbows, and collarbone. In terms of hair coverings, I wear a combination of sheitals/falls everyday (I have 3 that I rotate). I cover my hair with a tichel when I work out at the gym, but I still wear a skirt and long sleeves there (and I definitely feel like I stand out!) I have a modest personal style blog, which some may say is not very tzanua considering I post pictures of what I wear everyday, but my goal is to show that modest dress can be fashionable and doesn't have to be frumpy or unflattering. All the time people tell me that I give a 'tznius way of dressing' a better name because I do it with my own personal style and flair.

2. Growing up, did your mother or grandmother dress modestly in any way? Do you think modesty was something instilled in you by your family? Did you dress modestly growing up?
As I am a baalas teshuva, my mother does not conform to the tradition definition of 'tznius.' That being said, I don't think I have ever seen my mother in something overtly revealing. Even though my parents live in SW Florida, my mother doesn't wear shorts, she prefers capri pants. She does wear sleeveless and short sleeve shirts, but nothing tight and the sleeveless shirts only reveal a bit of her shoulder. She likes her clothes to fit well, but not be body-hugging. My mother instilled in me the virtue of covering up to attract the right type of attention. She told me that it was important to let people see my personality first and too much of my body. I went through a period in high school where I wore halter tops and tight jeans. I was never fully comfortable with myself when I dressed like that.

3. Are you married? How does your spouse feel about your choices for modest dress? Is it a dialogue or does your partner leave the mitzvah to you?
I am happily married, Baruch Hashem! My husband likes the way I dress and leaves all modest decisions up to me. Sometimes he jokes that it would be nice if I wore lower cut tops (not cleavage baring, just lower), but then I remind him that I cover up my body out of respect for him, and I know that that is important to him. We've talked about certain aspects of tznius together, but in the end it has been my choice.

4. What would you wear on a typical day? On Shabbos? If you dress differently on weekdays and Shabbos, why do you make this distinction and how?
On a typical day I wear a high neck undershirt, some sort of nice shirt or sweater, a skirt, a fun necklace (I am really into fun accessories), and a cute pair of shoes. On Shabbos I tend to wear much fancier clothes to enhance the kedusha of Shabbos. During the week, I wear my two falls (either my hat fall with a hat or scarf, or my full fall with a bit of bangs pulled out to look more natural) and on Shabbos I tend to wear my full sheital. I will admit that I dress up more that the normal person during the week. I feel better about myself when I feel confident about the way I look. On Shabbos I dress up more than usual. I wear heels, put on more makeup, wear my nicest clothes. I feel that dressing up more for Shabbos is a big part of lichvod haShabbos.

5. What do you think other people infer from your clothing and hair covering choices? Has anyone ever said anything to you outright that expresses a judgment based on your appearance? (Ex: “You don’t cover your hair or wear skirts, so why do you keep kosher?”)
People definitely infer that I am an Orthodox Jew and that I am Shomer Mitzvos. However, I know that I stand out in certain settings because I am not afraid to wear bold colors and accessories. People ask me all the time on the streets of Manhattan where certain kosher restaurants are, where shuls are, which bus to take to certain Jewish neighborhoods/cities in NY and NJ, etc.

6. Have you ever surprised someone by dressing more or less modestly and making them rethink their stereotypes about what it means to be an observant Jew?
I know that I have surprise many people, men and women alike, because I stretch the parameters of traditional tznius. I want people to understand that being tznius doesn't mean that you have to dress in a burlap sack or wear all black. I want to show Jews and Non-Jews that tznius can be fun and fashionable and something that people want to do, rather than feel like it is a restrictive set of rules that they have to follow. I want to break boundaries and show everyone that you can have your own personal style and still be tznius!

7. When you see someone who observes tzniut differently than you, what are your initial thoughts? How do you deal with them?
I always wonder what their rationale is for dressing the way that they do. I try my best to be free of judgement, however, I will admit that I am human and therefore I know that judgement is inevitable. I am mostly curious about why people choose what they choose. For example, if a woman wears skirts all the time and short sleeves, I am curious why she does that (aside from being a bit jealous since I am always boiling in the summer months!!). Or if someone wears pants but covers their hair a certain way, I really want to know why. (Although I am aware that hair covering and tznius, while related, are very different mitzvos). It is mostly just a sense of curiousity and wanting to learn about other people's Jewish journeys and identities.

8. I say modesty or tzniut … what does that mean to you?
To me, tznius means being attractive but not attracting. Tznius means taking pride in yourself and your image enough to want to cover it up so that it is special, but also being aware that the point is not to make you feel ugly or subjugated. Tznius is a way to show off your personality to others so that they see you for you and not a pile of body parts or a huge potato sack. Its a way to highlight your best features in a demure way and feel good about yourself.

9. Anything else you’d like to add about your choices, experiences, and more!
My journey has been a long and involved one. It took years for me to get comfortable with certain decisions and there were regressions along the way. My words of wisdom is take it one day at a time. If you are trying out skirts for the first time, don't go cold turkey or give yourself an ultimatum. If you want to wear pants the next day, wear pants. If not go another day in a skirt. Just take it slowly. If you go about it with the right frame of mind, it will stick and you will come to love your choices. If you approach it the wrong way, you will feel resentment and it will be given up sooner than you think. Go at your own personal speed and listen to yourself. Only you know whats right for you in your journey of being tznius.

The Tzniut Project 16: It's a Very Personal Mitzvah

This is the sixteenth in a multi-part series called The Tzniut Project. Women from a variety of backgrounds with a variety of observances have volunteered to anonymously answer questions that I have written about their practices, people's assumptions, and more. For more information on the project, click here. Please continue to check back with The Tzniut Project to read more stories and comment abundantly!

Note: This post is contributed by a reader

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1. How do you affiliate Jewishly? Feel free to elaborate on the words people use to describe you and the words you use to describe yourself.

I would label myself as left-wing yeshivish. I believe strongly in following halacha even when I don't always understand it or even like it. I agree with a lot of charedi concepts but ultimately there are some aspects of the charedi community that I can't agree with.

2. Growing up, did your mother or grandmother dress modestly in any way? Do you think modesty was something instilled in you by your family? Did you dress modestly growing up?

I am a BT so there was no real standard. My mom and grandmothers wore pants, short sleeves, etc. My maternal grandmother always wears pants. Personally I always was more conservative in my choices. If I wore shorts they were loose. I never owned a tube top or short shorts. My skirts were always on the longer side. We were also taught the concept that there were times and places for different types of clothing.

3. Are you married? How does your spouse feel about your choices for modest dress? Is it a dialogue or does your partner leave the mitzvah to you?

I am married. Tznius is an ongoing conversation. When we were dating we were on the same page for the most part. There are small differences in taste and style but nothing major. He has encouraged
me to take on new things that I thought were harder then they actually were.

4. What would you wear on a typical day? On Shabbos? If you dress differently on weekdays and Shabbos, why do you make this distinction and how?

Normal weekday clothes are either a black or denim skirt that covers my knees a shirt that covers my collarbone and elbows and some type of tights or socks depending on the weather. I love all hair coverings especially pretied tichels and snoods but there are days when my sheital is more appropriate. Pregnancy and nursing have also influenced my clothing choices in the past year.

On shabbos I have a bunch of comfy dresses that I love for Friday night and shabbos day is usually a dress or skirt and top. Shabbos is a holy day deserving of my best clothes. I think getting dressed in my
nicest clothes despite the fact that its often just my husband and me sets the tone for the day.

5. What do you think other people infer from your clothing and hair covering choices? Has anyone ever said anything to you outright that expresses a judgment based on your appearance? (Ex: “You don’t cover your hair or wear skirts, so why do you keep kosher?”)

I think I come off as being more modern then I actually am. I don't dress in a bais yaakov manner even though I have a lot of the same beliefs. I asked someone I'm friendly with about a specific book
about women in Judaisim that had come out recently and she strongly emphasized how intense it is. People are surprised that I don't use the eruv, don't have a TV, keep pas yisroel, and try to eat chalav
yisroel.

6. Have you ever surprised someone by dressing more or less modestly and making them rethink their stereotypes about what it means to be an observant Jew?

No.

7. When you see someone who observes tzniut differently than you, what are your initial thoughts? How do you deal with them?

I'm human and sometimes I judge, but at the end of the day I know that it's a very personal mitzvah. If people are at the very least being sincere in trying to keep a normative standard of tznius in accordance with halacha then kol hakavod! If their tznius is not in keeping with normative halacha and they purport to be a Orthodox/frum person I get irritated sometimes because proper tznius (in dress and mind) is ultimately no less halachic than being shomer shabbos.

8. I say modesty or tzniut … what does that mean to you? 

When it comes to tznius its as much of an attitude as it is a way of dress. I am a loud outgoing person so the little voice in the back of my head is always there reminding me to tone it down a little.

9. Anything else you’d like to add about your choices, experiences, and more!

Ultimately tznius is about being a bas melech (daughter of the King of Kings). Every day I ask myself how should I dress and how should I behave when continuously standing before our Creator (infinitely greater than any human king)! He set certain standards for us as Jews and we should do our utmost to adhere to them.

The Tzniut Project 15: "The Uniform"

This is the fifteenth in a multi-part series called The Tzniut Project. Women from a variety of backgrounds with a variety of observances have volunteered to anonymously answer questions that I have written about their practices, people's assumptions, and more. For more information on the project, click here. Please continue to check back with The Tzniut Project to read more stories and comment abundantly!

Note: This post is contributed by a reader. I have been waiting for a post from the Chasidic world, and here it is! Also, B"H = Baruch HaShem (essentially, blessed is G-d).

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1. How do you affiliate Jewishly? Feel free to elaborate on the words people use to describe you and the words you use to describe yourself. 
I consider myself to be just plain Chareidi. We affiliate with Chabad so I guess that makes us Chabad or Lubavitch? I am not really sure. I know my family describe us as "ultra orthodox." Really we are just regular frum yidden.

2. Growing up, did your mother or grandmother dress modestly in any way? Do you think modesty was something instilled in you by your family? Did you dress modestly growing up? 
Modesty was definitely not something I saw growing up, not by my mom and later on not even by my grandmother (albeit always in a very classy way B"H). When my family came to America they really assimilated into the culture. Growing up I did not so much dress modestly as much as I dressed very casually and sporty. I loved wearing jeans and T-shirts, sport suits, etc. But by the time I got to the middle of high school that all changed. That is when I really started my entry into the realm of short skirts, open tops, etc. This phase though only lasted two years. I started dressing tzniusly soon after I got to Stern College in New York.

3. Are you married? How does your spouse feel about your choices for modest dress? Is it a dialogue or does your partner leave the mitzvah to you? 
We have been married for a year and usually my husband leaves the tznius dress up to me. Lately though he has been pretty picky about how I dress around the house (I blame it on our baby girl). When I get home I just want to let loose (i.e. walk around in pants under a skirt, maybe a shirt does not come up to my collar bone). He would not ever let me walk around our apartment with my hair uncovered or even in a short-sleeve shirt. I am pretty much okay with it and used to it ... I was dressing this way around the house before I got married anyways (except for the covering hair part).

I happen to be a lot more careful of how I dress to go out so he never mentions anything about that ... unless something is accidentally showing that should not be. It is definitely a dialogue for us. I think though that my husband's desire for me to be fully tznius in the house comes not only because of our daughter but also because that is what he saw at home. His mom is always fully tznius at home with her hair covered. His dad as well walks around in pants and a button down. My husband comes home and the only thing he does is change his pants, otherwise he stays in his tzitis and a button down shirt. My husband B"H takes his tznius of dress very seriously, he does not wear/own jeans and T-shirts, ever.

4. What would you wear on a typical day? On Shabbos? If you dress differently on weekdays and Shabbos, why do you make this distinction and how? 
On a typical day I would wear a pleated skirt, some kind of top and a kiki riki/linda leal top underneath. Every single top I have in my closet gets worn with one of these shirts underneath. I, like my husband, dont wear/own any denim. I definitely try to make a distinction between my weekday dress and my Shabbos dress. I feel it is important to do so because Shabbos is all about honoring the King of Kings. We spend the whole day preparing a beautiful table in honor of Shabbos, have a nice becher [kiddush cup] and lichters [Shabbos candlesticks/lights], I think it is just as important to spend some time preparing ourselves as well!

Now we are home every Shabbos because we dont use the eruv, and even at home I make it a point to dress up for Shabbos. It also make me feel regal, I like it and so does my husband :) We rarely have an opportunity to pay a little extra attention to how we look, well for me Shabbos is that opportunity. I make that distinction by wearing my full sheitel instead of a tichel or my fall. I also make that distinction by wearing some kind of fancy top and wearing jewelry (since I don't usually wear it during the week). My skirts are all interchangeable from weekday to Shabbos.

5. What do you think other people infer from your clothing and hair covering choices? Has anyone ever said anything to you outright that expresses a judgment based on your appearance? (Ex: “You don’t cover your hair or wear skirts, so why do you keep kosher?”) 
At least in the community I live in people understand that I am frum/chareidi. I basically wear the "uniform": pleated skirt, some kind of top with a shirt underneath, the "chareidi" shoes, tights, sheitel/tichel. I think that my family infers that I am nuts! No one has ever said anything to me outright, and if they wanted to they kept it to themselves. I have to admit though that I am judgmental of people's appearances ... and perhaps that is why I choose to dress as I do, but don't get me wrong I enjoy my style.

6. Have you ever surprised someone by dressing more or less modestly and making them rethink their stereotypes about what it means to be an observant Jew? 
I dont think that I have ... My style of tznius has been evolving ever since I made my choice about four years ago. I had many bumps in the road when I went from zero to sixty and then back again. By the time I left Israel in 2009 I had chosen the "chareidi" style, and I'm really happy with my choice. I think that is the challenge of a lot of Baalei Teshuva, finding a tznius zone that works both for the person and within the community. I know that for me, honestly, community (both in Israel and L.A.) had a lot to do with my choice. My family can make stupid and hurtful comments about the fact that I dress tzniusly, especially when we go shopping or they buy me something, but I stick my ground, and they will hopefully one day stop making unnecessary comments.

7. When you see someone who observes tzniut differently than you, what are your initial thoughts? How do you deal with them? 
None of your readers will like this, and trust me I realize that this is not the right thing to do. I categorize them. I categorize people's observance by how they dress. It has been an uphill battle to get rid of this habit, if any of your readers have advice on this topic I will gladly hear it. I try not to judge them as people based on how they dress. If we are talking then I will listen, I won't automatically dismiss them chas v'shalom ["G-d forbid"]. What can I say, I have got some serious work to do in this department.

8. I say modesty or tzniut … what does that mean to you? 
To me it means mode of dress, speech, and actions. Most of the time it comes up on reference to dress, but there have been times between my husband and I where it has come up in actions. I think that over the years as Yiddishkeit has evolved and changed there has been a far greater emphasis on tzniut as a mode of dress rather than on speech and actions.

9. Anything else you’d like to add about your choices, experiences, and more! 
My style and closet have changed quite often over the last four years. In the beginning of my frumkeit journey I was all over the place trying to figure out where in the frum spectrum I wanted to be. I really think, at least thats how its has been for me, that community (and niche, i.e. "chassiddish") have a large influence in the realm of tnius as a mode of dress. For me personally, the reason I chose and have stayed with my current style is due to

1. being way more comfortable in my own skin than I ever have before,
2. finally choosing a niche/community within the frum world, and
3. getting married and having a baby (since I want to be a good example for my children).

The Tzniut Project 19: Keeping My Thoughts Modest

This is the nineteenth in a multi-part series called The Tzniut Project. Women from a variety of backgrounds with a variety of observances have volunteered to anonymously answer questions that I have written about their practices, people's assumptions, and more. For more information on origins the project, click here. Please continue to check back with The Tzniut Project to read more stories and comment abundantly!

Note: This post is contributed by a reader.

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1. How do you affiliate Jewishly? Feel free to elaborate on the words people use to describe you and the words you use to describe yourself.

Most of my family is Conservative and Orthodox, but I was brought up Reform. However, I have been attending Conservative and Orthodox shuls for about three years now, and based on my observance and beliefs, most would probably say I’m Conservadox. I feel like I have all of the major Jewish affiliations somewhere in my beliefs: I love the progressiveness of Reform, the Torah interpretation of Conservative, and the traditions of Orthodox. I’m also very interested in Kabbalah, but I wouldn’t identify myself as Kabbalistic.

2. Growing up, did your mother or grandmother dress modestly in any way? Do you think modesty was something instilled in you by your family? Did you dress modestly growing up?
I suppose I’m still “growing up” -- I’m only 18. My immediate family never put a huge emphasis on modesty for religious purposes. My mother dresses extremely immodest by any standards, especially for her age. I think that has had an influence on me to dress even more modest. I have extended family who dress very traditionally Jewish modest: no pants, hair coverings, no collarbones, etc.

3. Are you married? How does your spouse feel about your choices for modest dress? Is it a dialogue or does your partner leave the mitzvah to you?
I am not married. I plan to cover my hair when I get married. I haven’t been in a relationship where I’ve been pressured to dress more modestly; in fact, it has been quite the opposite!

4. What would you wear on a typical day? On Shabbos? If you dress differently on weekdays and Shabbos, why do you make this distinction and how?
I do not live in a very Jewish area, I actually live in what they call the “Bible Belt” of my state. My shul is an hour-and-a-half away, and although there are many Jewish areas around there, I live in what is essentially a farm town, and I attended a Catholic high school up until recently. This definitely has influenced what I wear day-to-day.

To school, I would usually wear our uniform polos and a knee-length skirt. Where I live it gets extremely cold in the winter, and because we weren’t allowed to wear leggings under our skirts, I’d wear slacks or harem pants in the winter to school. I would wear a cardigan over my polo at school. At home, I usually wear a t-shirt and comfortable (loose-fitting) pants. There are no men present in my household so it gives my mom, sisters and I some more choices. Outside of the home, on weekends, I usually wear dresses (I love them!) that are knee-length and if they aren’t elbow length, I wear a cardigan. In the winter, I wear loose-fitting jeans or harem pants or leggings under my dress/skirt. My job doesn’t allow us to wear skirts or dresses (I work in retail, and our uniform is a certain color top with khaki or black pants), but I can usually get away with harem pants or very loose pants. My employers don’t really understand my modesty beliefs, but I have to put up with it for the time being in order to pay for college next year.

On Shabbos, I definitely love to dress up! I feel since that Shabbos is such a holy day, we should honor it as such. I don’t think it’s vital to dress up for Shabbos, since some people do not have the means to do so, and Shabbos is really all about G-d when it comes down to it. But given the chance, I take it! I usually wear a skirt, a nice blouse and a cardigan. I absolutely love fashion, so putting together a nice outfit for Shabbos is actually one of the highlights of my week! :)

5. What do you think other people infer from your clothing and hair covering choices? Has anyone ever said anything to you outright that expresses a judgment based on your appearance? (Ex: “You don’t cover your hair or wear skirts, so why do you keep kosher?”)
People who don’t know that I’m Jewish have probably given me the most judgment (i.e., “You’re crazy for wearing such long sleeves in the summer!”). Like I said, the area I live in is far from Jewish, but aside from long sleeves and high necklines, I don’t think I stick out too much. My town is very Christian, so most people here dress pretty conservatively anyways. The hardest thing has probably been during summer when I go swimming or tanning with friends. I normally wear a swimdress that exposes zero cleavage and is just about mid-thigh. Since my non-Jewish friends (and even many of my Jewish friends) usually wear skimpy bikinis, I have gotten some weird looks from people. My best friend is a non-Jewish boy, and for the longest time he just didn’t understand why I wouldn’t want to wear jeans, or why I didn’t wear low-cut tops like all of my peers. However, most people that know me, just know that I dress modestly.

6. Have you ever surprised someone by dressing more or less modestly and making them rethink their stereotypes about what it means to be an observant Jew?
My mother does not dress/act tznius in the least, and I think that sometimes I surprise her with the modesty of my own clothing and actions.

7. When you see someone who observes tzniut differently than you, what are your initial thoughts? How do you deal with them?
All people judge. I do my best not to :) Going to a non-Jewish, or even non-secular, high school and having family members who do not dress modestly has made me never really take a second glance at someone dressed immodestly. Of course, when people are baring all with cleavage, midriffs, and legs, don’t we all judge a little? When I see someone that observes tznius more traditionally than I, it inspires me to further my observance and practice of tznius.

8. I say modesty or tzniut … what does that mean to you?
Tzniut is more than just covering your body parts. I practice tzniut in my everyday actions and words. A quote that really helps me remember my tznius values is: “Watch your thoughts, for they become words. Watch your words, for they become actions. Watch your actions, for they become habits. Watch your habits, for they become character. Watch your character, for it becomes your destiny.” Long story short, I feel that if I keep my thoughts modest, my character and destiny will keep modest. Modest actions and words to me mean following The Golden Rule, remembering “If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all,” and realizing how lucky I am to have everything that I do, and taking none of it for granted.

9. Anything else you’d like to add about your choices, experiences, and more!
As with the halacha in general, I think that tznius, not just in dress but in words and actions, is part of G-d’s mission for us to live in His image. I believe that tznius should also be a person’s choice: find what calls to you. That isn’t to say that if you find/like an outfit that bares all to wear it, but if a woman finds that she doesn’t like the way covering her hair makes her feel, then I think she should forgo the hair covering. I wish that everyone got to experience the great blessings I have received from dressing and acting modestly.

Men's Edition | The Tzniut Project 1:People Think I'm a Rabbi

This is the first in the Men's Edition of a multi-part series called The Tzniut Project. For the Men's Edition, men from a variety of backgrounds with a variety of observances have volunteered to anonymously answer questions that I have written about their practices, people's assumptions, and more. For more information on the project, click here. 


Please continue to check back with The Tzniut Project and the Men's Edition to read more stories!

Note: This post is contributed by a reader. 

1. How do you affiliate Jewishly? Feel free to elaborate on the words people use to describe you and the words you use to describe yourself. 
Orthodox, yeshivish, ben Torah.

2. I say modesty or tzniut … as a man, what does that mean to you? 
Keeping shirt buttoned, no shorts, not talking about private matters in public, using respectful language, separate seating, not going up to women to say hello, avoiding places where men and women mix. Not going to the beach. Avoiding places where women don’t dress appropriately. Being careful what I see and what websites I go to and what movies/videos I watch.

I never wear jeans.

3. Growing up, did your father or grandfather wear a kippah or any other “modest” or recognizable Jewish dress? 
My father and grandfather both wore a kippah. My father always wore a hat of some type outside the house.

4. Do you think tzniut was something instilled in you by your family? Did you dress with any type of modest or recognizable Jewish dress growing up? 
My ideas of tznius I got from Yeshiva. Not sure that Jewish dress is related to tznius.

5. Are you married? How does your spouse feel about your choices regarding tzniut? Is it a dialogue or does your partner leave the mitzvah to you? 
Yes I am married. My wife has much more stringent ideas of Tznius than I do. She would be very upset if I wore anything but a white buttoned dress shirt with a collar. Tznius in a marriage involves how what dresses and acts in the house alone and in front of others. Each couple has to work that out with each other.

6. What would you wear on a typical day? On Shabbos? If you dress or carry yourself differently on weekdays and Shabbos, why do you make this distinction and how? 
I tend to wear a white shirt, black pants and a black jacket. I also have a beard. I wear my tzitzis out. On Shabbos and Yom Tov I wear a black fedora and a tie. Why? Because wearing a black hat during the week will just get my hat ruined. The tie is in honor of Shabbos/yom tom.

7. What do you think other people infer from your clothing and head-covering choices? Has anyone ever said anything to you outright that expresses a judgment based on your appearance? (Ex: “You wear a kippah, so you must be x,y,z”) 
People think I am a rabbi, which is only partly true.

8. Have you ever surprised someone by way of tzniut, making them rethink their stereotypes about what it means to be an observant Jew? 
No.

9. When you see someone who observes tzniut or dresses differently than you, what are your initial thoughts? How do you deal with them? 
I judge people by the way they dress. I will assume they either belong to a particular Jewish grouping or they are totally mixed up and they don’t know what they are doing. I look to see if what they are wearing is consistent with their mores, their speech patterns, accents, and interests.

10. Anything else you’d like to add about your choices, experiences, and more! 
My son who is in yeshiva commented about me that the way I dress looks like someone from the past who hasn’t been influenced by the yeshiva style of today. He said in Yeshiva you would not find buchrim wearing black cotton pants, they will either wear polyester or wool. I look like someone who went to yeshiva in the past but I am now “out of it.”

The Tzniut Project 2.0: Modesty Isn't a Physical Checklist

YES! It feels so good to be back in the swing of things with The Tzniut Project.

Big shocker here: The first installment of The Tzniut Project 2.0 comes from a man, and a Chassidic man living in Israel, no less. I've had gobs of inquiries and sent out the questions to many, so stay tuned for this exciting, fun, insightful series redux.

This is the first in the Men's Edition of a multi-part series called The Tzniut Project 2.0. For the Men's Edition, men from a variety of backgrounds with a variety of observances have volunteered to anonymously answer questions that I have written about their practices, people's assumptions, and more. In this particular post, I have tried to clarify Yiddish terminology and otherwise uncommon words through parenthetical statements and translations to the best of my ability to make the post accessible to individuals of every level of understanding and observance. Enjoy!

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1. How do you affiliate Jewishly? 
Both my wife and I come from non-religious homes and today associate with the "Chassidic world" in Eretz Yisrael. We have a rebbe (teacher/mentor) and [follow] Chassidus, and we chose to send our children to Yiddish-speaking Chassidic schools. Our outlook and the Rabbonim (rabbis) from whom we learn and take our advice are Charedi (often translated as "ultra Orthodox" externally).

2. I say modesty or tzniut (also written tznius) … what does that mean to you? Do you think tzniut is a concept that is largely geared toward women?

Tznius is a requirement of Hakodesh Boruch Hu (G-d) for Klal (all of the nation of) Yisrael, both male and female equally. The concept of modesty has, of course, both internal and external aspects, yet it is only when the external are a manifestation of the deeply rooted internal understanding and acceptance of tznius that we truly serve HaShem through our modesty.

The Jewish people have a covenant with the Creator of the world. Our holiness and our greatness is guarded by furthering our understanding of HaShem and His Oneness. When we understand that HaShem rules over the world and there is no thought or action that He does not see, we understand that we must conduct ourselves according to His Torah and Will. However, when we understand the oneness of HaShem, and that every moment and every second of the day is an intimate experience of Him and a furthering of our relationship with him, then we understand how our thoughts, words and action impact this reality and this relationship.

Not one thought escapes HaShem; we are always bound up with him and always with Him — whether walking in the market or sitting in the shul. Walking to Shabbos services is as much an a avodah (task or activity) as participating in them because we are never seperate from HaShem.

Therefore, we see that every moment is special and our modesty is not limited to a physical checklist of elbows, knees, and what-have-you.

Modesty requires us to guard our thoughts from lewdness, to guard our eyes from immodesty, not to listen to foul language or lewd jokes — to be a holy and sacred nation unto HaShem Yisborach (may He be blessed).

[Blogger's Note: This is from this week's Torah portion, Yitro! How appropriate, albeit a few days after the fact.]

Not only that but when we consider the oneness of G-d and His constant involvement in the world, which he granted us, as a corridor to the next world, we begin to realise that our time is not our time, our thoughts are not our thoughts, our outfit is not our outfit — it is all granted to us, only to enable us to make the right decisions to come closer to G-d in this world and earn a place in the world to come.

3. Growing up, did your father or grandfather (or any other male role models in your life) dress modestly in any way? Do you think modesty was something instilled in you by your family?
I couldn't have lived in a less modest environment. My family were not actively immodest, yet secular society puts very little empthasis on the values of modesty and thus while people aren't actively pursuing immorality/immodest, it is all mixed in with daily life.

A friend down the street from us had an aunt who was a nun, she went with the whole levush (in Yiddish this refers to regimented dress) and none of us could get our head around such a young woman giving up everything for G-d and wearing such a funny outfit ... l'havdil (this word is about making a distinction), fast forward ten years [to us]!

4. Are you married? How does your spouse feel about your choices for modest dress? Is it a dialogue or does your partner leave the mitzvah to you?
My wife and I are both dedicated to upholding the Torah requirements of modesty in every way we can. If we ever come to a place of disagreement, we let the Rov (rabbi) be the final say — this can come about in how we dress the kids, for example. We both want emes (truth) — whatever the emes is, one of us will step down if we were mistaken.

5. What do you wear on a typical day? On Shabbat? If you dress differently on weekdays and Shabbat, why do you make this distinction and how?
I wear normal chassidic dress of a long black coat and hat. This in itself is an act of modesty that we all blend together, not one of us needing to stand out — becoming consumed in the oneness of HaShem. That doesn't mean we don't have individuality. Anyone that has experienced a frum (religious) community knows there is more personality there than anywhere else on earth, but the need to stand out is erased, and we blend in together, bustling along to serve HaShem day in and day out.

On Shabbos I wear a bekishe (long coat) and shtreimel (a special fur hat) l'kavod Shabbos (to honor Shabbat). 

My wife does not wear a sheitel (wig) and covers all of her hair either with turbans, snoods, or tichel (scarf, also called a mitpacha in Hebrew) depending on the occasion. My wife took on herself to wear tights with a minimum of 70 deniar (this refers to the thickness of the yarn/weave) that are not skin colored. These are common things in the charedi world, and she doesn't stand out from the norm.

6. What do you think other people (Jewish and non-Jewish) infer from your clothing and hair covering choices? Has anyone ever said anything to you outright that expresses a judgement based on your appearance? (Ex: “You wear a kippah, so you must be x, y, z.”)
We for sure get pigeonholed outside of the charedi world. One bonus of the beard and getup is that people often assume I don't speak English, so more often that not I get to hear what people really think of me in public (haha).

The truth is I don't wear anything to distinguish me to one group or another, and thus I get the charedi label.

More often that not we hear non-charedi chevreh (people) in the queue behind us ask such things as, "Do you think she shaves her head?" or "Isn't he HOT in that coat," in which case I normally turn around and ask for the time in a beautiful British accent, to ensure they don't stray into questions that could cause them embarrassment when one of us later answers the phone in English.

7. Have you ever surprised someone by dressing more or less modestly and making them rethink their stereotypes about what it means to be an observant Jew?

I think continuity is the key — one needs to make a true assessment as to what they believe is ratzon HaShem (the will of G-d) and then do that, even with great mesirus nefesh (self sacrifice) if necessary. For this reason I don't fluctuate up or down much.

8. When you see someone who observes tzniut differently than you, what are your initial thoughts? How do you deal with them? Is there any particular aspect of tzniut that you see other people observing or practicing that you struggle with?
Life is a journey, and the journey is a relationship with HaShem — if I know the person is actively having a relationship with HaShem, even though they may currently not be doing His ratzon (will) — I don't know their journey, I don't know their tests and problems in life. For this reason I try and stay away from judgement. However for my own observance of tznius, I also try and stay away from areas where I know there will be a lack of tznius.

Once by the kosel (Western Wall), my wife saw a Jewish woman arrive on Shabbos night, very "under dressed" (to say the least), carrying her iPhone and a pad of paper with a pen. She ripped off a piece of paper, wrote a kvittle (prayer), and stuck it in the wall (how many issurim [prohibitions] right there?!?) and then continued to daven (pray) with all her heart. 

Now it's easy to judge her — issur after issur (prohibition after prohibition). But it's also possible to see a Yiddisher neshama (Jewish soul) who gave up her Friday night to pray to G-d. We don't know what she has been through, what family HaShem had her born to, her Jewish education, etc. But we can see she gave up the Friday night bar for G-d. This is a relationship with HaShem. May it grow until she brings herself within side His ratzon (will).

9. Please include any additional details or thoughts you have here.
I truly believe that a thorough understanding of all the hashkofa and halochas of tznius (outlook and laws of modesty) are necessary for every man and woman. Then, one must spend significant time internalising them and turning them into a relationship with G-d.

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The author of this post included some suggested reading (in English) for people that he believes is insightful and beneficial. Please note that I haven't personally read any of these books and thus do not endorse them, but from the looks of things they all can provide guidance, inspiration, and lessons on tzanua. 

• Recommended reading for everyone: Pirkei Machshavah: Thoughts for a Jewish Heart
• Recommended reading for men: The Garden of Purity (For Men Only)
• Recommended reading for women: Nefesh Chaya: The Unique Avodas HaShem of the Jewish Woman
• The author of this post also suggests Modesty: An Adornment for Life Day by Day and says that "this book must be learnt with your own local Rov (rabbi) to understand how to implement that which is relevant to you. It musn't be disqualifed as too frum (religious), chas v'shalom (G-d forbid), but not every person in every community, at every stage in life/Jewishness should try to do everything at once in this book.

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Stay tuned for the next installment of The Tzniut Project 2.0. If you want to participate, just send me an email at kvetching dot editor at gmail dot com. If you have questions for the blog author, please post them in the comments section or email me them if you'd rather function on a private plane. 

The Tzniut Project 18: "Refined Character Clothed Accordingly"

This is the eighteenth in a multi-part series called The Tzniut Project. Women from a variety of backgrounds with a variety of observances have volunteered to anonymously answer questions that I have written about their practices, people's assumptions, and more. For more information on origins the project, click here. Please continue to check back with The Tzniut Project to read more stories and comment abundantly!


Note: This post is contributed by a reader. I did include a comment, if only for posterity's sake!

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1. How do you affiliate Jewishly? Feel free to elaborate on the words people use to describe you and the words you use to describe yourself.
Traditional Orthodox. If forced to pinpoint it further, Litvish/Yeshivish.

2. Growing up, did your mother or grandmother dress modestly in any way? Do you think modesty was something instilled in you by your family? Did you dress modestly growing up?
My mother grew up Conservative and dressed modestly to a degree while married to my father who grew up orthodox. When they divorced, her adherence to the laws of modesty pretty much went out the window. I went to Jewish day school and always dressed modestly, but I would wear a bikini at the beach. This is why it's important for parents to be on the same page. It's confusing for the kids. I have two brothers who are also religious and our mother looks at it as the ultimate in rebellion.

3. Are you married? How does your spouse feel about your choices for modest dress? Is it a dialogue or does your partner leave the mitzvah to you? 

I am married and my current husband has a stricter standard for modest dress than my former one. I knew this when we met based on where he's from. My ex-husband is more a Yeshiva University (modern orthodox) flavor and refused to let me cover my hair with a wig. He felt very strongly about this. Not wishing to rock the boat of shalom bayis, I went along but was never comfortable with it. I'd approach the topic occasionally, but he never relented. That's not why we divorced, but it didn't help much. When I started looking for a shidduch again, I knew the standard I'd want to keep. I live in a very yeshivish environment so there have been some adjustments to my dress since I got here. Out-of-town tznius is not the same as in-town tznius.

4. What would you wear on a typical day? On Shabbos? If you dress differently on weekdays and Shabbos, why do you make this distinction and how? 

On a typical day I wear some sort of black skirt or dark denim with a modest top and or shell. Always tasteful, nothing really out there. I have special clothes to wear to honor the Shabbos -- suits, separates, shoes. During the week I wear my wedding rings and a watch. On Shabbos I add accessories. I will run errands in a tichel during the week. On Shabbos it's always a sheitel. It's not uncommon for women in these parts to have a sheitel just for Shabbos.

5. What do you think other people infer from your clothing and hair covering choices? Has anyone ever said anything to you outright that expresses a judgment based on your appearance? (Ex: “You don’t cover your hair or wear skirts, so why do you keep kosher?”) 

I think my exterior adheres to the local standard but I'm sure I am very different from most of the women dressed like me. I am not from Brooklyn -- I would likely be more relaxed if not for the peer pressure and wanting to keep my son in good standing at his school. I also raised my level of tznius a notch to honor my husband. He finds me most attractive when I am totally tzniufied.

6. Have you ever surprised someone by dressing more or less modestly and making them rethink their stereotypes about what it means to be an observant Jew? 

I bumped into someone I knew from my old neighborhood (out of town) who I have not seen since my remarriage. She had never seen me in a sheitel and did not recognize me at all.

7. When you see someone who observes tzniut differently than you, what are your initial thoughts? How do you deal with them? 

I come from a town where not everyone covers there hair, and there are members of my husband's family who fall into this category as well. I *try* not to judge a book by its cover. My only concern is sending a consistent message of what the standard is to our child. He has observed, "That person is a yid (Jew) but doesn't know the rules about ladies not wearing pants," which is an acceptable answer to me.

8. I say modesty or tzniut … what does that mean to you? 

Refined character clothed accordingly. Honoring Hakadosh Baruch Hu by using proper speech and carrying myself as one who takes his laws seriously.

9. Anything else you’d like to add about your choices, experiences, and more!

N/A

The Tzniut Project 23: A Walking Art Gallery

This is the 23rd in a multi-part series called The Tzniut Project. Women from a variety of backgrounds with a variety of observances have volunteered to anonymously answer questions that I have written about their practices, people's assumptions, and more. For more information on origins the project, click here. Please continue to check back with The Tzniut Project to read more stories and comment abundantly!

Note: This post is contributed by a reader.

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1. How do you affiliate Jewishly? Feel free to elaborate on the words people use to describe you and the words you use to describe yourself.I describe myself as Yeshivish to Yeshivish lite. Meaning, I definitely fit in the Yeshivish box, but I also surf the 'net (obviously), watch a little Hulu, Netflix, whatever, read secular books. Basically, I'm open to secular culture, but I wouldn't say I'm Modern Orthodox.

2. Growing up, did your mother or grandmother dress modestly in any way? Do you think modesty was something instilled in you by your family? Did you dress modestly growing up?Modesty was definitely NOT something I grew up with. My mom (who is great, for the record) would walk around with nothing on. At all. Thankfully, she no longer does that. I did happen to wear a lot of skirts growing up, but that's just because I liked them. I also liked tube tops and strapless dresses, so there you go.

3. Are you married? How does your spouse feel about your choices for modest dress? Is it a dialogue or does your partner leave the mitzvah to you?I'm married. My husband likes it when I dress all "shtarked up," with a button-up blouse or blazer. Thankfully, he also likes it when I wear trendier outfits, but I think I get more compliments from him when my clothes are more tznuah, less form-fitting. He doesn't put any pressure on me one way or another. [Shtark = looking very religious]

4. What would you wear on a typical day? On Shabbos? If you dress differently on weekdays and Shabbos, why do you make this distinction and how?Weekdays I typically wear comfortable, casual but fashionable clothes. T-shirts, some button-ups (never tucked in though, it never looks right on me), sweaters in the winter, and I basically alternate between five or six skirts, all comfortable. That's a big thing for me, to find clothes which look stylish but that I can move around freely in, and that I don't worry about the kids getting them messy.

I do dress up more for Shabbos, with fancier button-ups, blazers, skirts and shoes. I reserve these clothes only for Shabbos, Yom Tov and Rosh Chodesh. For me, not wearing them during the week gives them a reserved status, so even if the actual article of clothing isn't so fancy, it still feels special when I wear it. When they start getting worn out, I "demote" them to weekday.

5. What do you think other people infer from your clothing and hair covering choices? Has anyone ever said anything to you outright that expresses a judgment based on your appearance? (Ex: “You don’t cover your hair or wear skirts, so why do you keep kosher?”)From the way I dress, people usually assume that I grew up frum. During one of my sheva brachos, one of the guests asked if I went to Bais Yaakov in NY [a schol for girls]. Also, friends have told me that some of my clothing choices are a little farfrumpt [very, very frum].

6. Have you ever surprised someone by dressing more or less modestly and making them rethink their stereotypes about what it means to be an observant Jew?Well, after I started wearing modest clothes, my mother's aunt, a staunch Catholic, told me that I reminded her of a nun. I think that was probably a new association for both of us.

7. When you see someone who observes tzniut differently than you, what are your initial thoughts? How do you deal with them?On seeing someone with a different level of tznius, I'd say that I used to try and categorize them. I guess I was trying to decide where they would be coming from, what they "stand" for, etc. That was when I had just become frum and was probably a wee bit judgmental and zealous. Now, when I'm talking to a woman who, say, is wearing shorter sleeves than I would, or showing more hair than I do, I actually listen to what she's saying instead of pigeonholing her. I guess I've mellowed, and I've seen that where someone is holding on the tznius spectrum really has little to do with who they are as a person. This isn't to say that I don't categorize at all (I wish I was holding there), just not as much as before.

8. I say modesty or tzniut … what does that mean to you?Tznius to me means a way of being. It applies to how much we expose to the world in both an external and internal sense. How much we want to put out there and how much we keep for ourselves, our family, Hashem.

9. Anything else you’d like to add about your choices, experiences, and more!After I started dressing more tznuah, I did notice a marked difference in how strangers treated me. I definitely felt an increase in level of respect (though considering how I dressed before, it's not so surprising). I think that having to dress so utterly differently than I did before, and to be so much more, well, dressed, caused me to introspect a good deal. It made me think about how I used to use clothing as artistic expression. Like, my body was my palette, or I was a walking art gallery. After donning the frum "uniform," I had to re-assess who I was internally if I wasn't just a walking statement-maker. Or, to ask myself what statement I was making now, with the frumiform. It was an interesting transition.

Leggings = Not Tzniut!?

Borrowing this from Wolfish Musings. I hope he/she doesn't mind :)

Leggings Under A Skirt Is Not Tznius?

Perhaps someone can explain this to me.

A friend of Eeees recently received a letter from her kids' school. In short the letter said that it was a violation of tznius rules for a woman to wear leggings under her skirt (even if the skirt is of the proper length).

For the life of me, I can't figure this out. How are leggings any worse than tights? On the contrary, I would think that leggings are better than tights since it is less form-fitting on the exposed lower leg.

Can anyone please explain the logic of this to me?

The Wolf

Nu? What do you guys think? I wear leggings under EVERYTHING. Most of the time they don't show. Am I crazy untzniut?

The Tzniut Project 12: "Normal" Clothes

This is the twelfth in a multi-part series called The Tzniut Project. Women from a variety of backgrounds with a variety of observances have volunteered to anonymously answer questions that I have written about their practices, people's assumptions, and more. For more information on the project, click here. Please continue to check back with The Tzniut Project to read more stories and comment abundantly!

Note: This post is contributed by a reader. 

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1. How do you affiliate Jewishly? Feel free to elaborate on the words people use to describe you and the words you use to describe yourself. I am currently trying to convert to Judaism through the RCA (Rabbinical Council of America, Orthodox).


2. Growing up, did your mother or grandmother dress modestly in any way? Do you think modesty was something instilled in you by your family? Did you dress modestly growing up? No, no one in my family ever dressed modestly to the degree of modest I dress now. My family always was respectful, but never long skirts or long sleeves all the time. I in no way shape or form dress modestly growing up, I wore mini skirts/shorts and shirts where my chest was always exposed.

3. Are you married? How does your spouse feel about your choices for modest dress? Is it a dialogue or does your partner leave the mitzvah to you? I am not married, but I am dating, and my boyfriend has a HUGE impact on how I dress. At first (before my decision to convert), he never cared what I wore, or what I looked like, but now that I am dressing Tznius, he is always concerned, and constantly questions me. I am trying to find my own way around tznius instead of just wearing shells and skirts, so sometimes things always dont look the best.

4. What would you wear on a typical day? On Shabbos? If you dress differently on weekdays and Shabbos, why do you make this distinction and how? Normally I will wear a shirt, a shell underneath, and a black long skirt. I dont really differentiate how I dress on Shabbos and every other day because I dont have Shabbos at my house, and it gets difficult to lug so many different options around. Currently I am wearing a shirt, with no shell underneath (long sleeve, up to the neck) and a long black skirt. I have been trying to look for shirts that don't require shells.

5. What do you think other people infer from your clothing and hair covering choices? Has anyone ever said anything to you outright that expresses a judgment based on your appearance? (Ex: “You don’t cover your hair or wear skirts, so why do you keep kosher?”) Everyone comments on my dress of choice. Especially my mother. She always says that I look like an old lady with the skirts I wear or that I am not dressing my age. I got used to it. Some people at work also state how I should wear "normal" clothes again, and how they like looking at my Facebook to remember me when I dressed "normal."

6. Have you ever surprised someone by dressing more or less modestly and making them rethink their stereotypes about what it means to be an observant Jew? No.

7. When you see someone who observes tzniut differently than you, what are your initial thoughts? How do you deal with them? Since I am still learning, I take into consideration how different people observe Tzniut, but I know what I like to wear, and how I like to wear certain clothing. If I like a style, I will definitely adopt it, but otherwise, I keep it my way.

8. I say modesty or tzniut … what does that mean to you?Elbows covered, Chest Covered, Knees Covered, Hair Covered, covered everywhere! =]

9. Anything else you’d like to add about your choices, experiences, and more! No, but please let me know if you have any other quesitons!!! =]

Ask Chaviva Anything: The Hater Edition

We all have them. We all try to ignore them. But sometimes, I like to drag the haters out into the public eye and maybe let them see how ridiculous their questions and proddings are. Why? Because what we see and detest in others is that which we see and detest in ourselves. It's about coping with those things, not deflecting them onto others.

Question Number One:

I'm rather confused by the contradictory nature of your adherence to tznius. You dress very modestly and yet you talk quite freely about matters which are rather intimate and inappropriate for the public sphere. Just today you posted about vibrators on your facebook page - isn't it a bit contradictory to be modest in dress and yet not in behavior?

Okay, what you're confused about is what tzanua is. Above all, I frequently remind people about the many layers of tzanua, because as I discovered when I did The Tzniut Project a few years back, many people see tzanua as a very shallow thing -- cover the elbows, cover the knees -- when it's about so much more. It's speech, actions, how you carry yourself, the company you keep, the way you eat, the way you sit, everything.

So I'd like to know what -- other than my Facebook post at my utter shock at the ease in which people can purchase vibrators in the UK and why they're located in something as benign as the Bandaid asile -- is "intimate and inappropriate" that I post about here on my blog or even on Facebook. I'd really love to know. Give me some examples. Oh pretty please!

For those of you curious about the utter scandal to which this questioner refers, this was the Facebook post:

 Now for Question Number Two, which is actually more of a statement.

"I feel so antisocial. On my computer. While the family observes #chag. D'oh." Are you FOR REAL??? I give your marriage about six months ... 

Oh haters. Oh haters! The quote the person refers to is from Twitter. You see, this year, because we were in the UK for Pesach, things were kind of messy. Me, a new olah to Israel, and Mr. T, holding to the traditions and rulings of the Chacham Tzvi (when in Rome, do as the Romans do), had to figure out our situation delicately. Traditionally, those who do not live in Israel celebrate two holiday days at the beginning and end of Passover -- those are days that are very Shabbat-like in restrictions, but you can cook and there are other leniencies. Those inside Israel only have one day at either end of Passover.

After speaking with a rabbi, it was decided that I only had to hold to one day, while Mr. T had to hold to two days. The result was that I was sitting in the bedroom doing work (because, well, work called, and I was observing one day) while the family was sitting in the living room reading or conversing about odds and ends. I felt bad about it, and Mr. T and I discussed how strange it was to be on two different time tables. Hopefully, next year, we'll be on the same schedule and all will be right in the world.

As for your bets on my marriage, I hope someone actually took that bet. And bet you a lot of money, because this marriage is pretty amazing. But I have nothing to prove to you. We'll talk again in six months, mmk?

Peace to the haters!

L'hitraot! For real this time ...

Okay, okay, I lied. So sue me. How can I NOT blog about my first day at Middlebury's intensive Hebrew immersion program? I'll give you some bullet points. But wow, it's going to be one heckuva ride.

+ Our building is sans air conditioning, and with the tznius dressing, this makes Chavi one miserable little pickle. I'll be doing laundry probably twice a week. Thanks for the warm, icky, and constantly rainy weather, Mama Nature!
+ My roommate is from Lebanon. My initial reaction was "sweet, we can make peace in the Middle East, just me and the roomie." My second reaction was "man, I don't know much about Lebanon, but I have a rock taken from a bombed out Lebanese headquarters near the border that is now under Israeli control." We're both the easy going types, so I don't foresee World War III or anything, and if anything, I anticipate a friendship will be born. She's returning to Lebanon after the course, and maybe I'll get a house invitation?
+ There are people here from every walk of live and from every inch of the world. We have someone from England, the aformentioned roommate from Lebanon, a gal from South Africa, someone from Gaza, and someone from Palestine. Now, my initial reaction to all of this was "Whoa! Gaza! Gnarly!" and then when I met the girl from Palestine, well, I wasn't sure how to react. I've never met anyone who says they're from Palestine. It's usually, I'm from Israel, but I'm Palestinian. I'm a Palestinian Israeli. But being from Palestine? I have to think about this. But the ages vary from just out of high school to people working for the government in their middle/late ages. There are a lot of rabbinical students (mostly of the Reform/Reconstructionist bent), and a lot of international relation students, too. And there are a few like me, rocking the academia and needing a boost.
+ Our first meal, we went to the cafeteria where they were supposed to have kosher meals a'waiting (prepackaged this weekend, then real food henceforth), but they didn't have anything. For the past day I've mostly done salads, and it works. There's also an abundance of fruit. But eating the prepackaged Turkey and/or Meatloaf meals for every meal this weekend did not sound yummy on the tummy. However, supposedly the actual kosher here is delish. The upside to being kosher? I don't get tempted to nosh all the ice cream they have ...
+ It's beautiful here. I can't describe it, but it's just serene, quaint, quiet. And there are a million bugs everywhere and I appear to be as sweet as honey. Pass the aloe?
+ We're staying in a "house." Everyone (well, mostly) has a roommate and we all have common areas. I'll have to take some photos of the building. But we have a kitchen (can't use!) and a game room, as well as a big sitting area/living room that's pretty cool. It's neat having our own house, though. Outside the sign says Hebrew (in ivrit of course) and we all travel in packs like ducks.
+ I am one of two shomer shabbos people here. There are several others who are kosher, and there's a faculty member who is shomer, I believe. It made one of the activities last night ("draw something ...") kind of difficult. It will be a challenge, that's for sure. Probably more of a challenge for me to stay where I'm going than for those around me. Explaining my name, my story, it won't be possible after tomorrow. It's going to be a tough time here. I already miss the community in W. Hartford ... not to mention Challah.
+ We did Havdalah tonight in one of the teacher's "homes" here. There weren't many of us, but it was special. As a result, I'm missing the movie tonight -- I had to come home and shower, and getting dressed only to dirty another outfit just wasn't my prerogative tonight.

There was so much over Shabbos I wanted to write about. Starting tomorrow my thoughts will be compiled in a handy-dandy notebook (thanks Blue's Clues) b'ivrit. The day starts with a test, some music, a pledge, and then silence throughout the house I think. Shabbos was lonely because there weren't children running around, there wasn't hours-long meals and napping was nearly impossible with the heat. This place? It's a hotbox. It was interesting, I guess. I'm perpetually exhausted from the heat, the talking. But it will get better, surely, when we take the pledge and start really learning.

At any rate, I'm sure that the rest of the seven weeks will be more interesting, and I think it will be interesting to watch some of the conflicting personalities (with unique beliefs about the Middle East) attempt to express themselves b'ivrit. It will be, if anything, frustrating. But I love everyone here so far. The uniqueness and connections are amazing.

So, with that, Shavua tov, and so long!

Ask Chaviva Anything!: The Sartorial Stuff

More questions ...

Two sartorial questions: (1) Aside for uncovering your hair, have you changed anything about the way you dress since you got divorced? (2) What do you wear when you exercise? Sorry if this one seems tactless or tone-deaf, but I'm fascinated by the way people who uphold sundry modesty standards deal with dressing for the gym and I remember you had some posts about athletic wear on the old blog.

My dress hasn't really changed since I got divorced. So that's an easy answer. Wait, I take that back. Since I don't live in Teaneck anymore, I'm a lot more chill about my attire. I take a lot more time to feel good about what I'm wearing and to be very relaxed (yet professional) in my clothing choices. Dressing is a lot more fun now, I think.

As for what I wear to work out? Well, I'll probably get a lot of flack for this, but when I work out I wear workout pants and a baggy short-sleeve shirt. When I lived in Teaneck, I wouldn't have dreamed of doing this but as I take my health more seriously, I have to be realistic about working out and being comfortable while doing it. The thing I've realized is that, at the gym, people are too busy focusing on themselves to pay attention to me. If anything, I think the girl who shows up in a full hijab to work out stands out more than I do. So, from a tznius perspective, I'm doing myself a service by not standing out with long sleeves, a skirt with pants under it, etc.

FYI: Find all the goodies from The Tzniut Project here!